In facing the sky, I observe that the heavens are heavy of mind and pregnant with rain. “A perfect day”, I mumble to myself, “to be stuck on goddamn foot patrol duty.”
Today, I’m looking after a probationer, and we have been given first dibs on the next burglary that is reported, because it’s one of the things he needs for his folder – the training manual all probationers slowly work their way through on their way to no longer being probationers. A glorious idea in theory, but not having a car to get to said burglary seems to me like a bloody waste of time.
There are plenty of buses going throughout the borough, and there’s nothing wrong with going to a call on the bus, in theory; in practice, however, it never really sat well with me to not have a set of wheels. I think there’s something about being a response copper – I have it in my blood; when an I-grade comes in, I feel a brief moment of what I imagine an olympic athlete must feel: A feeling of raised preparedness, awareness, a slight tingling of adrenaline, and a grim determination of doing your cursed best, no matter what.
Of course, an I-grade means that we have to get to the call in only a few minutes, and regardless what you see on television, I can’t rip open the doors of the closest car, flash my badge and say ‘Ma’am, I am the police, and am going to have to commandeer this vehicle’, before putting on my sunglasses, cranking up the stereo, and flying, tyres a-squealing, down the road. Don’t get me wrong, I have thought of it many times, but I figured that the brass wouldn’t see it with quite the sense of humour it deserves. And given that doing this would at the very least be TWOC (Taken Without Owner’s Consent), I doubt I’d escape that one with my job intact.
Anyway, all of this is moot, because, as it turned out, we spent the entire day doing nothing productive: about 20 minutes into our shift we received a call about a traffic incident, and the next nine-and-a-half hours, I spent directing traffic, guarding a cordon, and following the painfully slow pantomime that is set into motion whenever a pissed-out-of-his-mind father-of-two runs straight over a teenage cyclist. It was gory, it was tragic, and it was difficult beyond words to just stand at the sideline, first watching the teenage girl take her final breaths before the ambulance even arrived, and subsequently watch the father-of-two (who, as it turned out, had a daughter who was only a year older than the 17-year-old he had flattened into an early grave with his Range Rover) completely go to pieces as he slowly came out of his drunken stupor, and made the ever-so-slow realisation that his life was never going to be the same again.
You’ll have to forgive me glossing over this particular episode with more than a sprinkling of world-weary cynicism – but I saw the exact same thing only three days ago, and again a couple of weeks before that. Somehow, people don’t realise that beer doesn’t make you a better driver, and cars are rather dangerous, especially in combination with other road users. Anyway, I’ve had a dog of a day, and I’m deeply, profoundly and utterly not in the mood.
So, instead of a story about death that I’m not in the mood for, I’m going to exploit the privilege that comes with writing my own column, to write about something I actually like to geek out about.
Let’s rewind a couple of paragraph – apropos my reference to ‘TWOC’ just then; did you know that it is practically impossible to steal a car?
Allow me to explain.
It’s not that cars are hard to start – with all the fancy electronics you find in cars these days, doing so without the keys is tricky, which is why theft from a vehicle is more common than theft of a vehicle. And, for similar reasons, you’ll often find that car thieves will try to obtain the keys through other means; deception, robbery, burglary, or, indeed, theft. Either way; you can steal a set of keys, but stealing a car is impossible, because it is related to the legal definition of theft.
Ask any police officer what the definition of theft is, and you’ll get one of two looks: Either a twinkle of pride, or an annoyed look of fear; I belong in the former category, and will proudly rattle off the formal definition… And if you ever meet me, I welcome you to try me on that one. If you receive the latter, the annoyed look is the face of an officer thinking ‘oh shit, I really ought to know this, but I haven’t read my white notes in so long that I cannot remember it verbatim’.
Anyway, the definition theft is “To dishonestly appropriate property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it”. To be guilty of ‘theft’, in other words, you have to fulfil each of the criteria baked into the definition.
It all sounds quite simple, but it’s rather interesting, actually; that relatively short sentence contains a whole lot of words with very specific meanings, and if any one of those things is not ‘covered’, it isn’t ‘theft’. Obviously, it may still be a crime; but it wouldn’t be ‘theft’ in the legal sense of the word.
So, since I have you here, I’d like to be a geek about one of my favourite topics for a little bit, and break down the definition of ‘theft’ into its basic components. I should also point out that I’m just riffing on the subject here; I’m not a solicitor, nor do I have any law training beyond what the Metropolitan Police gave me, so I might be slightly off the mark here and there. Don’t use anything in this post to try to defend yourself in court, none of this is legal advice, and please feel free to imagine all those other woolly disclaimers people write to cover their asses on the internet inserted in this paragraph, too.
Got that? Good.
To dishonestly appropriate…
So, The definition launches into the word ‘dishonestly’, which is a fantastically interesting word. Basically, if you walk into a corner shop, grab a bottle of beer, and someone asks you to pay for it… If you pay for it, thinking that the person who charged you for it worked in the shop, you weren’t acting dishonestly: you thought you had paid.
Similarly, imagine your mother gives you £20 every time you visit your parents. If you were to visit, your mother was out, and you saw her pocket book on the kitchen table, could you take £20? You could argue that you would have been given permission to do so if she had been there, based on previous actions, and so you weren’t acting dishonestly.
Or, for example, imagine you leave a restaurant after a long night out, and you’ve forgotten to pay. In and of itself, that is not dishonest – but it could become a problem, depending on what you do when you realise you’ve forgotten to pay. Or perhaps a friend leaves a party, and you spot their phone on the table after you leave, so you pick it up and give it to them, only to realise that it wasn’t their phone after all. Again; not dishonest, so not theft.
There’s loads of examples around this, and I’m sure you could think of a few; The key thing here is what happens once you realise that what you did might have been dishonest. If your mother tells you it wasn’t okay to take the £20; if you don’t give the phone back; if you fail to go back to the restaurant to pay… Basically, if you don’t go back to set things right, you’re in trouble.
An interesting one here; part of the definition of theft refers to taking ‘reasonable steps’ to find out who the rightful owner of a found object is. If you do not take reasonable steps, you’re being dishonest. As an example: If you find a £20 note on the ground, it is safe to assume that it belongs to someone; if you saw who dropped it, it would be ‘dishonest’ to keep it, and so you would be guilty of theft if you kept it. In practice, it is tricky to find the ‘owner’ of a loose £20, and holding it up, asking “Did anyone drop this?” is probably enough research before you pocket it. If you find a wallet, however – and especially if there’s a means of tracking down the owner – removing any of the money – even a single penny – is dishonest, and technically theft.
… property belonging to another …
This one is usually pretty obvious. It has to be property, and it has to belong to somebody. There’s two sides to this: There are things that aren’t ‘property’ in the legal sense of the word, including, for example, wild berries and mushrooms, wild flowers, and wild creatures. So, if you pick a lovely bouquet of flowers for your mum to apologise as you bring her back her £20 note that you weren’t supposed to have liberated from her wallet, you’re in luck: you’re not committing a further theft.
Other things that aren’t property are things like electricity – you cannot ‘steal’ it – because it doesn’t disappear when you use it; in effect, you are dishonestly using it. Of course, lawmakers got around that one by making ‘abstracting electricity‘ a separate crime.
On that note, it’s worth pointing out that, of course, it is possible that some plants are endangered, some creatures may not be killed, and you’d probably be better off not eating some of the mushrooms you find out in the forest – but you wouldn’t be committing theft; just crimes under other bits of legislation.
The other side of this is that the property has to belong to (or ‘be in the legal care of’) somebody – it is possible for something to have no owner. Garbage, for example, has been discarded by its original owner, and in most circumstances, so-called ‘dumpster diving’ is not theft, with the argument that you cannot dispose of something one second, and have a say over what happens to it the next.
Another interesting quirk of the law is that it is possible to steal something that belongs to you in the first place. Say, for example, that your toaster breaks, and you take it to a toaster repair shop. You leave it in their ‘possession and control’, and whilst you still own it, it now ‘belongs’ to the toaster repair shop. If you go back into the shop whilst the shopkeeper is out, and take your own toaster back without telling them, it is – in theory – possible to have committed theft, because the item isn’t meant to be in your possession at the time. In practice, you would probably be charged with obtaining services dishonestly (since you probably owed the repairman money at this point) rather than theft, but still.
… with the intention of …
Now this one is bloody interesting, because it is often one of the ones that shoplifters use in their defence; Part of the definition of the crime of theft includes intent – in other words, you have to purposefully commit the crime of theft in order to be guilty of theft.
As a thought experiment; Imagine you are walking around a supermarket, and your phone rings. When it does, you have a small item in your hand, and you stick it in your pocket, as you grab your phone. You finish your phone call, and then remember that the item is in your pocket. If you think “Oh, I have to remember to pay for that chocolate bar”, you haven’t committed theft; after all, you don’t intend to steal the chocolate bar. However, if you change your mind, and you think “Hey, this bar of chocolate is already in my pocket, and nobody saw me put it there. I am now going to walk out of the shop without paying it”, you have committed theft. Nothing has changed, except the thoughts in your head – and since we cannot read anybody’s mind, this causes some interesting issues.
Supermarkets and shops get around this by asking you to use a shopping basket. When you do, you are expected to use it – and if you are caught leaving the shop with a chocolate bar in your pocket, you’re going to have a really hard time explaining why you decided to put the chocolate in your pocket instead of in your shopping basket.
Legally, however, sticking a bar of chocolate in your pocket isn’t theft – if you remember to pay for it before you leave the shop. If you do not, you’re in trouble. If you did it on purpose, you’re guilty of theft.
In practical terms, it’s impossible to see inside your mind, but the ‘intention’ thing isn’t actually all that hard to prove; did you look over your shoulder before you put the chocolate in your pocket? Did you try to conceal what you did? If caught as you try to leave the shop, what do you say and how do you act, etc.
… permanently depriving the other of it
This one is another good one, and is the thing that got me started on this rant in the first place. Proving that you plan to permanently deprive is easy in some cases (if you eat the chocolate bar, you cannot give it back, so obviously it has been ‘permanently deprived’). It could be argued that if you take your neighbour’s lawnmower without asking, you could be guilty of theft – but most people give the lawnmower back, in which case it wouldn’t be theft.
If you knew your housemate had a roll of £20 notes in their sock drawer, and you took £20 without telling them, and then spent it, you have ‘permanently deprived’ them of the £20 note. If you later that day go to a cash point, draw out £20 and put a £20 note back, you will technically still be guilty of theft – the exact note you ‘borrowed’ without permission is permanently missing, and it’s unlikely that you’ll ever see that exact note back again. From a practical point of view, your housemate probably won’t care which £20 note is in their sock drawer, but from a legal standpoint, you’re a thief.
There are situations where it is possible to ‘borrow’ an item and give it back, but it still be seen as ‘permanent deprivation’. For example, if I buy a ticket to a Maroon 5 gig (don’t worry, I probably wouldn’t), and you ‘borrow’ it, go to the gig, and then give it back to me after the concert is over, you could argue that you are not guilty of theft, because you didn’t deprive me of the piece of paper. However, I could argue that the piece of paper is irrelevant, and that it serves instead as a permission to enter the concert and experience the band live. Most people agree that the paper the ticket is printed on has little value in and of itself; it is the thing it represents (i.e. that the door-man lets you through the doors to experience the concert) that has value. If that is the case; you would indeed have ‘permanently deprived’ me of the value of the ticket, and therefore arguably been guilty of theft.
Along similar lines, imagine that you are at a restaurant, and you see a very beautiful vase that you think may be worth some money. You pay for your meal but you take the vase with you, planning to sell it to an antique dealer. When you get to the dealer, they tell you it’s worthless, and you suddenly feel bad, so you try to sneak the vase back into the restaurant. However, when you get back there, the police is waiting for you. Even though you’ve changed your mind, they have it on CCTV that you saw the vase, hid it under your jacket, and removed it from the premises. The fact that you’ve changed your mind has no impact on the crime – there is more than enough evidence to arrest you for theft – your remorse and the attempt to return the vase might get you off the hook (either entirely in that they cannot be bothered arresting you, that they cannot be arsed charging you, or – if they do decide to do both – through a lighter sentence when the case ends up in court), but you’re still a thief in the eyes of the law.
The word ‘theft’ also often comes up in copyright debates, especially vis-a-vis internet filesharing, movie and music piracy, and so on and so forth. Whilst there is no doubt that pirating music off the internet is illegal, it cannot be ‘theft’ under the Theft Act of 1968, simply because it doesn’t fit the ‘permanently depriving’ part of the definition: If I make a copy of my Metallica MP3 files and give them to all my friends, nobody has been ‘deprived’ of the actual physical files: I still have them, my friends have them, and Metallica still has a copy of their songs somewhere. Presumably.
And this brings us full circle to the point I made at the beginning of this lengthy rant; why it is difficult to be convicted of to ‘stealing’ a car; It happens rarely that a vehicle is stolen with the purpose of permanently depriving its owner – Or rather, it’s very difficult to prove such a thing. The crux of the matter is a simple question: How do you prove beyond reasonable doubt that the car thief didn’t mean to bring the vehicle back; or that they didn’t mean to use it and abandon it later? If it is abandoned somewhere at the side of a road, for example, a good solicitor could argue that the criminal meant for the owner to find and be re-united with their vehicle again – and if that is the case, this particularly criminally-bent knight-in-shining-armour would be a lot of things; but not a stealythief.
Instead, someone found in possession of a car that they do not have permission to drive, they are arrested for and charged with TWOC or TDA – Taking Without Owner’s Consent, or Taking and Driving Away. The one exception to that is if someone is caught trying to dismantle a car; obviously, it’s easier to prove that they intended to ‘permanently deprive’ the car’s owner of the car if they are taking it to pieces for scrap or parts.
So, what’s the point?
I know it isn’t much of a story (certainly nothing as dramatic as the riots, that’s for sure), but I did want to give you a glimpse into just a tiny bit of the legal side of things we have to consider on a day-to-day basis.
The whole point of this article is that we use words like ‘stealing’, ‘theft’ and ‘a thief’ in everyday language all the time; as a police officer, even a simple word such as ‘theft’ has an ocean of meaning; and slick thieves will use every trick in the book to try to avoid getting arrested.
“I didn’t know that belonged to anyone”, “I found it”, “I forgot I put it in my pocket”, “I was only borrowing it”, “I was going to give it back”… We’ve heard all the excuses – but you’d be amazed how often I end up having to explain in detail why someone is about to get arrested either way
***
Matt Delito is a pseudonym for a policeman working for the Metropolitan Police. All Notes from the Frontline are not entirely “the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,” due to the sensitive nature of the business, but are all based on actual events. These days, he’s on Facebook and Twitter as well.
Matt has a book based on his Notes from the Front Line column out now – you can get it from Amazon, in paperback or on Kindle.
If you missed his previous columns on Giz UK, check them out over here.
Image credit: Police image from Shutterstock.
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Another great column
. Kind of surprised to see it put up on a Thursday as opposed to the regular Friday.
I can’t begin to imagine how hard it must be for you to have to deal with these sort of incidents week in and week out. I have no doubt that you must have your own copping mechanisms, but it’s clear that they don’t make things a whole great deal better.
For that I would like to thank you and all of your colleagues around the country for doing the job that you do. For doing your best to keep our streets safe and as much of a harmonious place to live as possible.
And I would also like to thank you for the second part of today’s column. It gives very valuable insight as to how words that we (the public) use everyday really don’t reflect all that closely on their actual meaning when it comes down to their “official” use.
You do realise it is Friday
as much as you should look at the time my comment was posted and realise this was posted yesterday and just moved to front page again
well, as yesterday as 1am gets XD, very early hours this morning I guess would be more accurate
Sorry for the confusion Nick — we accidentally published this Friday morning, but set it with yesterday’s timestamp. Definitely got that Friday brain, sigh…
I was wondering if I was loosing the plot myself. Need a Crunchie bar.
“copping mechanisms”……..freudian slip??….but yes it was another great column….
Great content and easy to read!
We need an easy to read explanation for the “I’ve been robbed” statement, when it should be “I’ve been burgled”
Great read, especially after a set of 7 nights. Off to sleep now!
I think Matt (and possibly myself) will have a nerdgasm having a go at “Robbery” and “Burglary” (two *very* different definitions, BTW) with all its intricacies and different scenarios.
Here’s a teaser: If someone comes along and suddenly snatches your phone (or handbag/wallet, etc) without touching you directly, It’s technically *not* robbery*
* I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice, other disclaimer text, bla bla bla, etc….
Indeed, AFAIK Robbery involves the threat or use of force to deprive someone of something.
Burglery on the other hand involves breaking into somewhere to steal.
This is easy! Did it in A-Level Law,
Robbery – Theft plus force
Burglary – Theft plus trespass
Next…………
Hehehe…
I can totally see this in Crown Court…
“Your honour…
Robbery = Theft + Force, and Burglary = Theft + Trespass.
So he is robber, innit?
Bosh.”
Dont be daft the CPS could never put it so eloquently!!
Actually, you can commit burglary without stealing anything… If you break into someone’s house (or even walk into an area you aren’t meant to) and commit an assault, for example, you’ve committed burglary and assault.
Not forgetting Criminal Damage. Doesn’t it specify the assault has to be GBH to qualify Burglary?
Next dilemma……. 9.1(a) or 9.1(b)? Hmmmmmm
Early article is early?
Half way through and it’s another intriguing article
This clearly labels why downloading mp3s illegally cannot be considered stealing or theft. Well done sir, now go and take a well earned rest after the Olympics.
I know I’m just being geeky, but I thought the reason why music (including designs, patents, etc) isn’t “theft” is that it is classed as “Intellectual Property” and not “Property” under the Act.
Don’t get too excited though, as you will still get spanked from other legislation, just not “theft” under the Theft Act.
Oh don’t worry, I’m not about to start!
I simply want people to use the right terminology when people download music illegally and write about it (see “you wouldn’t steal a car” etc)
Actually, someone saying “stealing music is like stealing a car” would actually be right on one sense, but wrong in another. Right in the sense that neither is “theft”, but wrong in the sense that you can’t “Take and Drive Away” music.
Feeling a nerdgasm coming…
http://www.scenicreflections.com/files/you_wouldn_t_download_a_car_Wallpaper__yvt2.jpg
Great article Matt, takes me back to specials training… although if all the training material was written this way it would be much more interesting to read!
Very interesting Matt, If its ok, I may “steal” some of your material for the pub tonight…
Ahh, but you won’t be permanently depriving him of it, so it isn’t theft.
And its not property
Oxford v Moss. You can’t steal information! Oxford University student who borrowed an exam paper that he was shortly to be sitting and then returned it. No intention to permanently deprive the paper itself.
Another great, geek-tastic article – right on the Giz brand there. It’s like being transported back to Hendon where it’s drilled into you literally from day one.
As a fellow geek I really liked the S1 Theft Act, and was constantly annoying the trainer with “Oh oh…. and what if they did this…”, much to the eye-rolling of classmates. And regularly dealing with shoplifters it comes in handy.
My favourite nugget of info that you touched on was that if you took wild berries it wouldn’t be theft. However, if you then sold it (or products made from it) it *would* be theft. So your nannas selling wild blackberry jam at your local arts and crafts fair would be committing theft.
I totally want to see that on Coppers – TSG busting into the nursing home with a “big red key” and taking down gran in the kitchen, one of them saying “You smell that? Yup – blackberries. Take ‘em in boys.”
Although being a nice lady she would probably not hear them until they were in the kitchen and then ask the boys “if they wanted a cup of tea and a sit down”
How does that work, do the wild berries suddenly have an owner if they are turned into jam?
It becomes a theft only if a person uses those berries for commercial gain. It’s specifically written under Section 4 of the Theft Act!
“A person who picks mushrooms growing wild on any land, or who picks flowers, fruit or foliage from a plant growing wild on any land, does not (although not in possession of the land) steal what he picks, unless he does it for reward or for sale or other commercial purpose.”
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/4
What if she’s picking mushrooms to serve for breakfast at her B&B? Like on that Four in a Bed show with the odd German lady?
I knew we’d start discussing “what if” scenarios…
Well to the letter of the law, technically she would be committing theft, if she was serving breakfast to paying guests (ie commercial purpose). If she cooked them for herself or her family then she wouldn’t.
Does it all depend on who owns the land that the wild things are picked from? I know there’s a few Michelin starred restaurants that make a big deal out of their menu being made up of herbs and stuff that they go out and pick each morning.
It doesn’t matter who owns the land (though you could be trespassing).
Taking a step back here – I think the point of this is that it’s okay to pick the odd berry as you’re going on a walk for a snack, but not okay to dig up chunks of National Trust land with your JCB.
As for the restaurants, I still think the herbs, etc are still cultivated and bought somehow (they need to rely on a steady supply) – free range agriculture if you will.
What if the nan charged people for the glass jar but the jam was free with the jar?
Explain the situation to 10 reasonable people, and see what they think… I don’t think you could dodge your way out of that one
Yeah… wot ‘e said.
Firstly, what if it is your own land? Is the sale of wild plants and fungi illegal regardless?
Secondly, how do restaurants and shops deal with wild fungi that is very very difficult to cultivate? Chanterelles are a good example. Although encouraging them to propagate may work, they remain pretty wild. Yet they are both sold at many shops local to me and are used in many rather expensive restaurant dishes, without being successfully cultivated at any significant scale.
I’d guess imports may be part of the answer…
Also, this news article that I just dug up seems to suggest that anything small scale is largely ignored. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/wild-mushroompicker-wins-battle-of-the-chanterelles-478523.html
…and that is why we have a court system. I’m not a lawyer, not legal advice, ete etc etc, but
1. As I mentioned the ownership of the land is irrelevant for theft (though you may be trespassing)
2. In all honesty, restaurants probably do pick wild flora. Although technically a crime, in reality as you’ve pointed out in the article, the courts and the police probably have much better things to do.
In practice, I honestly can’t recall me or any colleagues raiding farmers’ markets and smashing crates and identifying “wild” mushrooms for sale.
Though I’m interested in how that particular clause came about in the legislation in the first place. I’m guessing someone digging up large plots of land to plant “wild” wheat or something then trying to sell it.
So where do pint glasses stand?
You go to a pub and order a pint which you pay for. You’re handed a pint in some packaging which looks pretty nice (they all do these days, where have normal pint glasses gone). Is it theft if you keep the glass as well as the liquid because there’s nothing anywhere to say it isn’t part of the sale price (plus I usually return 90% of the liquid anyway).
Most glasses these days are “nice looking” because the makers of the beverage it advertises have paid for it, either in part or in total. This saves pubs the constant cost of breakages and replacing those appropriated by persons such as yourself.
Incidentally the glass is not “packaging” since the liquid is only placed in it at the point of sale (unlike bottled beers) it’s more like getting a plastic bag at the supermarket to assist you in transporting the goods you have purchased.
I’d be interested in the answer to this too. Most hotel bars allow you to take your drink back to your room but I suppose that way the glass is still in their possession as you have no intent to take it.
I think (I’ve had this discussion with a lawyer uncle) it’s something to do with an object being on a property. So you pay for your beer and the services of the establishment, such as chairs, a glass and running water in the toilets. You have not paid for the glass itself though, just permission to use it. But taking it off the property is covered by the permanently depriving bit, because you’re stopping the pub from offering the service to other people
“there’s nothing anywhere to say it isn’t part of the sale price”
That’s not really how life works, though, isn’t it? You can’t keep the plats and salt shakers at a restaurant, and if you stay in a hotel, it doesn’t say anywhere you don’t get to keep the pillows on the bed or the TV on the wall…
So yes, definitely theft.
This where that strange and mysterious “reasonable person” makes one of his/her legal appearances, isn’t it
I bet you still take the little soaps and pens though (don’t answer that, wouldnt want you to incriminate yourself).
I guess what you’re saying is that because I know it to be not part of the sale price it’s theft and because I know I can never now not know (and a court wouldnt think it reasonable that I could be ignorant of it). Drat, I’ll have to continue with my 1970′s beer mugs then.
I dont know the legalities of removing a pint glass from the premises, what I do know is that most bartenders will not really bother to chase you down for a pint glass. In fact I would probably even say they will go on the attitude of “If I didn’t see it then it didn’t happen.” example.
Drinker: ” Hey bartender (name if they know it bonus points) these are nice glasses mind if i have one?”
Bartender: ” I do mind but i suppose if I dont see you take one then it didn’t happen right”
Drinker: ” Nice one geeze can I have another stella please?”
The other thing is that a small percentage of the glass are provided by the brewery free to the landlord. Most will get 2 cases ~48 pint glasses when a new shape comes out or a new product as a promotional item. After that the rest of the glasses come off the pubs bottom line profit, depending on how it is run this could mean higher prices or instead of glasses with Widgets to keep the beer fizzy you end up getting them in Tulips of Flat pints to stop people wanting to remove them.
Yes extreme and there are alo
Whether they bother to chase you down is sort of beside the point – it is theft either way. There are many types of crimes out there where nobody would realistically bother to do anything about them – but they’d still be crimes…
Unless when it comes to pint glasses. Then you’ll have the wrath of CO21 – Crockery and Cutlery Protection Unit.
Very interesting, needs pinning to the front as nearly missed it!
Quick question relating to 2 examples you give. You said that taking a £20 note would be theft even if you replaced it with another £20 note. But you say that taking a Gig Ticket then returning it after the event is still theft as you have deprived the person of the value of the ticket. Well since a £20 note is just a promissory note and has no real value in and of itself why is it different from the ticket. You clearly have not deprived the person of the value of it (unless they went to spend it before you replaced it).
Great observation, I’d liked to hear the answer to this one.
If technically not theft, then the next time someone annoys me I can replace their £20 note with 1p coins without fear of legal threats? The punch-in-the-face threat would remain high however.
Okay – this is really digging in to my memory here. But the £20 note scenario isn’t quite black and white.
But looking at the definition of “dishonestly”. Looking at Section 2(1b) one would not be “dishonestly appropriating property” if:
“he appropriates the property in the belief that he would have the other’s consent if the other knew of the appropriation and the circumstances of it”
In other words, if I genuinely believed my housemate would be okay with me taking the £20 he left on the counter and replaced it with the £20 in my wallet, it wouldn’t be theft.
However, if I knew he was a Numismatist and I swapped out his prized mint-condition first release special edition £20 he kept under his pillow with a scrappy, cocaine laden £20 (though technically the same value), then that would be “dishonest” (and hence theft).
Likewise with the Gig ticket – under the circumstances would you genuinely believe the person would normally consent to you taking them? It actually may not be theft if you could prove you could genuinely believe that he is such good friends with you and he knows you’re such a big Robbie Williams fan and he knew you would take the ticket to the concert without asking?
I would say the Numismatist example is a very different matter that just swapping 2 ordinary £20′s because the “mint-condition first release special edition £20″ has a value due it’s condition and rarity, whereas a bog standard £20 has only it’s face value.
At the risk of getting in to a hypthetical debate, my point (though using a more extreme example) was around consent. If you had a £20 note and for whatever reason you wanted to keep that particular £20, and if I came along knowing you had a liking for that particular £20 and knew you wouldn’t consent to swapping them (or even giving you a £50 for it), but I swapped them anyway (even leaving a £50), that would be theft.
If you just had a £20 on your desk you put aside for lunch, and I thought, well you’re going to use it for lunch anyway, so I’ll swap it out for 2 £10 notes, then it probably wouldn’t be theft.
The value of “property” (e.g. promisary note) is largely irrelevant for the offence. Say I could have a post-it note with “£20″ written on it stuck on my desk – and told everyone how proud I wrote the “£” symbol. Then, if someone came along and replaced it with a real £20 note, I could *technically* still press for theft, as they knew I wouldn’t have consented to them taking my post-it note.
Shirley Knott
August 18, 2012 at 8:18 pm
@ Minignong:
Not sure how replacing a £20 note with 1p pieces would work. Officially 1p pieces are only legal tender up to 20p (that’s why you can’t pay a fine / council tax etc. with pennies)
Apologies; we accidentally published Matt’s column this morning (Friday), but travelled back in time and placed it at 1pm *yesterday*. Have re-published it at its correct time, lest anyone chokes on their sandwiches when they realise it’s MIA.
You’ve got a time travel device and you just casually drop it into conversation….. damn that’s cool
Goddamn it! I just came out in cold sweats reading the top comment and thinking it was still Thursday! After looking at several calenders, I’m still only 80% sure it is actually Friday and I finish work in 90 minutes. Not cool!
Dude…hate to break it to you, but it’s actually Monday. 9am Monday.
Puh-leaase, if it was 9am Monday, I’d be doing what I do every Monday; I’d be trying to distract myself from the impending doom/next 5 days by going on Giz and flatly refusing to believe… it was… Monday.
Oh dear.
Hardly likely! My weekend can’t have been THAT good.
Hope you’re stocked up on chocolate milk, I hear craving it is a delicious side effect of time travel.
I for one enjoyed the strange timing going on and was happy to pour over another MD post early.
Seriously Kat, please warn us the next time you disturb the space-time continuum.
I set my biological clock to Matt’s article on a Friday and my head nearly exploded this morning.
A lot of schools feel the right to be able to permanently deprive the pupils of goods (mobile phones come to mind) when requested to be handed over. I see this as theft, but have been advised no.
Is there a different state of “theft” if you hand over something willingly when requested, but the person requesting has no intention of returning the goods.
I once had my doodle notepad confiscated, I later stole back property that was mine, I don’t know weather or not I stole my own stuff?!
The school has no right to permanently deprive a pupil of his/her phone. They can require that a parent come and collect it, but if they refuse to give it back (even if they have rules that say they can) then they are stealing.
I disagree…..on the basis that every school in the country does this and some kids parent would have sued the school (and probably thrown Human Rights contraventions in for good measure)and it would have been all over the papers.
Sorry, Your response confuses me I have said that the school has no right to keep the phone and you disagree because some parent would have sued the school? Schools confiscate items from kids every day, but I have never heard of them refusing to return an item (unless it was an illegal item, which they would hand over to the police)
If the object (mobile phone) is owned by (and as such the property of) the child/teenager then the school has no right to require that a parent comes to collect it.
The property is owned by the child, if the school deprives the child of their property and refuses to return it to its rightful owner (the child) then that could be construed as theft.
My point is that there must be some other legislation that allows schools to get away with doing exactly what you said otherwise there would have been legal cases against schools. (imho)
While I figure you may well be right from a strictly legal viewpoint, The school is the legally responsible guardian of that child while it is on the premises, as such it can take the phone away and require another legally responsible person collect it. I’m sure a teenager could legally challenge this, but it seems like a lot of effort to expect the average teen to go through. I shall check with my other half, who has probably had to deal with this as she is a teacher.
I am/was only talking from a purely legal standpoint as opposed to a ‘real world’ this is what happens pov.
The definition of dishonesty is left to the jury – I don’t think a jury would class the transaction you describe as dishonest. It’s also an objective subjective test. Not only does the act have to be what the “man on the Clapham omnibus” would consider dishonest, additionally to pass the dishonesty test the accused must have realised that his/her actions were dishonest by those standards. It would not be possible to challenge this as theft. There’s an added point that by attending the school you are entering into some implicit agreement about how both parties will regulate their behaviour. Confiscation is wound up in that. If you really wanted to challenge this then it would have to be at the ECHR I imagine, argue that the School is an emanation of the state and acting that way breached article 1 of protocol 1 (right to property) there are exceptions though. The state may enforce such laws as it deems necessary to control the use of property in accordance with the general interest.
I am not a lawyer etc etc etc – but the key here is ‘dishonesty’. The school would confiscate something based on their own policy; if mobile phones are not allowed, but the kids bring them in, then the confiscation isn’t dishonest – it is in like with policy – and not a theft.
Also, I very much doubt whether most schools do an awful lot of ‘permanent’ appropriations.
Wouldn’t it be more like TWOC? If the pupil stated they didn’t want to loose the mobile, then surely the school hasn’t got the owners consent.
@StrawberryFields
TWOC is a statutory offence, it doesn’t exist at common law so the government would have to introduce specific legislation to expand the meaning of TWOC from it’s current meaning “Taking a motor vehicle WithOut Consent.”
I would imagine the pupil has the “secret” option of keeping the phone but leaving the school premises (being picked up by parents etc.)
Given as schools are private land they can state that phones are not permitted in pupils posession and we’ve already established it’s not theft if they later give it back.
As a follow up, the actual statement the school that my kids go is as follow.
“After taking police advice, any mobile phones used within the school site will be taken, including all sim and memory cards for a period of 7 days. If a second occurrence takes place, the phone and it’s contents will be taken and not returned. EVER.”
My wife pinched a mug with a Rennie Macintosh design from a hotel bedroom, but went to a charity shop and bought a plain mug to replace it. So the hotel is not a mug short. I take it that we are safe from a dawn raid.
I hate to break it you but technically your wife may (allegedly) be a thief (in some interpretations of the law).
Plus side though, it’s along the lines of what Indy did in Raiders of the Lost Ark
Except his bag of sand was too heavy and worth rather a lot less
Haha yeah, they’re the only discrepancies I can think of…
I only watched it the other week actually, very pleased to be able to comment on your reference.
Don’t worry I went on a rampage afterwards and watched all of them. Can’t believe I’ve been missing out for years!
http://chzmemebase.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/seor-gif-how-it-must-feel-to-get-nutella-while-on-a-diet.gif
This is probably the best scene in the movie.
Bookmarked for a rainy day
nope. Its like the case of the £20 note. You didn’t return it, you replaced it, changing the product is the theft. If you returned the same mug it wouldn’t have been… Good luck with the raid!
Here’s one for you, talking of ownership. Have a look at your V5 car document. There you’ll find that you aren’t actually the ‘Owner’, you’re just a registered ‘Keeper’ So technically you don’t own your car, the DVLA do and allow you to use it as a ‘Keeper’
Isn’t this how they can tow your car and sell it if it doesn’t have a TAX disc? If you where the owner, that would be theft wouldn’t it?
Can of worms opened there……. a very good point……can I get the DVLA to buy me a car and let me be the ‘keeper’
actually i don’t think so.. The Keeper does not need to be the owner.. that’s why there is a difference, such as for company cars and some hire purchase agreements where the finance company own it but you are the keeper. The Owner is who ever physically owns the car. this does not need to be marked on the V5C as that is a registration of the car to be allowed on UK roads. The reason they can tow your car etc.. is because they own the highway and can remove your property. If you don’t have Tax and have not SORN your car they still cant take it off your driveway. they can fine you for failing to abide by the rules of uk registration but they can not take the car until it leaves your land. At least that’s how i understand it.
The DVLA don’t own the car. “Keeper” is not the same as owner because the DVLA don’t know if you own it or not (it might be a gift for someone else or under a finance agreement). They do know you are responsible for it – hence “keeper”.
The DVLA can’t take your car and sell it if it doesn’t have a tax disk. Not displaying a tax disk is an offence (and the DVLA will notify you and then issue a fine). Being on a public highway without a valid tax disk is a separate offence. The police and (most) local authorities can take possession of such illegal vehicles. After statutory periods they can dispose of them, but they’re meant to find and prosecute you first.
Did you buy the car with cash? Then you own it. Otherwise, there’s a huge chance the bank, the finance company, the leasing company, etc etc etc owns it… And it’s irrelevant. From the DVLA’s point of view, they just want to know who’s looking after the car there and then.
I’ve just realised I’ve sent my driver’s license off for renewal. What if I get ID’d? “Oh, here’s the receipt from the Post Office showing my payment for renewal. I’m screwed!
Yeah, first time I saw that new style logbook I was like WTF is this guy trying to pull?
MOT certificate has also moved over to a crappier format for the same reason; light fingered types had stolen with a bunch of blanks…. Or DID they actually?
” imagine you leave a restaurant after a long night out, and you’ve forgotten to pay.”..you’re not committing theft. You have already appropriated the property before you were dishonest. What you’re doing is
“making off without payment”, which, while covered by the theft act, isn’t theft as you define it. Same thing if you fill up your car at a petrol station and drive off without paying.
in the restaurant scenario there’s no ‘mens rea’ (guilty mind) until you remember you didn’t pay and decide not to…. hence the mindreading issue.
And the mens rea has to coincide or precede the offence. Can’t presecute for theft if you have a guilty mind “afterwards”.
exactly….(reminds me how much I miss the law, wish I’d carried on studying it)….I could have been Rumpole!
On the subject of permanently depriving someone of their car – if they crashed/burned/wrote off the car tro the point it was beyond use/repair by the owner, would this be considered permanently deprived and therefore theft?
Depends if they had that in mind when they dishonestly appropriated it.
If they planned to return it and were prevented through accident from doing so, no.
I’m sorry? Unless I’ve missed it … Not one word about the Harry Harrison reference?
Good point, but Matt’s subtle see? Just puts it in their ‘cos he knows us geeky nerd types will get the ref. (Although this is techy nerd site, not so much geeks, so maybe more of a I09 ref).
I imagine Matt would feel a bit conflicted about SSR.
Anyway. Harry Harrison sadly missed.
Matt – again – a great column – always cheers up my Fridays.
Technically, since this is the point of this article. I lent a friend some money – ie this is with consent – but then they refuse to pay it back – either because
1. The reason for the original loan was a lie / different to your expectation.
2. They are unable or unwilling to pay back
In both cases, will they be classed as theft or fraud? since I am being deprived of my property; the burden of proof of either permanency or beyond a reason time / agreed time, something that I have to provide.. but how will they be classified? and when does this become a civil vs a criminal offence?
The key here is that there was no appropriation of property belonging to another. You waived your rights over that money when you handed it over in exchange for the right to be paid back in the future.
It’d be fraud therefore if he knew at the time that he would be unable to pay you back as he would have dishonestly made a false representation with the intent to gain or cause loss.
If he took the money in good faith and subsequently could not repay there’s no criminal offence.
In any event you have contractual rights against which enable you to recover. The civil and criminal are separated. Theft or fraud is pursued by the state. Your contractual right to be repaid has to be pursued by you.
@ Minignong:
Not sure how replacing a £20 note with 1p pieces would work. Officially 1p pieces are only legal tender up to 20p (that’s why you can’t pay a fine / council tax etc. with pennies)
Great as usual Matt. Muito obrigado.
Portuguese? I assumed Matt spoke Spanish.
Maybe, but I am in Brazil at the moment so I decided to use the Brazilian version of my usual demonstration of gratitude.