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Every spiral galaxy has a supermassive black hole at its center, so they’re no big deal, right? Wrong: scientists have just discovered the biggest ever black hole, which weighs 17 billion times as much as our Sun—and it throws previous thinking about the evolution of our universe into question.
Discovered using the Hobby-Eberly Telescope at the McDonald Observatory, the NGC 1277 black hole beats all records. Not only does it weigh 17 billion times as much as the sun, it’s also eleven times bigger than the diameter of Neptune’s orbit.
Let’s put that another way: it takes light 17 minutes to travel the diameter of Earth’s orbit. In comparison, it takes light 4 days to travel the diameter of this black hole. This thing is off the scale.
So off the scale that it’s got scientists scratching their heads. Karl Gebhardt, one of the researchers behind the discovery, explains:
“The mass of this black hole is much higher than expected… it leads us to think that very massive galaxies have a different physical process in how their black holes grow.”
It throws some of the existing theory about formation and growth of black holes—and therefore the fundamental dynamics of the universe—out of the window. Back to the books, physicists. [McDonald Observatory via Universe Today]
Image by D. Benningfield/K. Gebhardt/StarDate
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What you would see as black is the event horizon the line past what nothing can escape.
They haven’t discovered it they’ve theorised it due largely to the fact they don’t exist !
And once you theorise that is causing the X-rays, stars orbit, gravity lens focusing and massive gravity then I’m nominating you for a Nobel prize – good luck.
Until then I hope you won’t be offended if I invest my time into the understanding of the thousands of highly trained professionals that have been studying the subject full-time for decades, rather than some random online sentence – it’s not you. it’s just me, I’m old fashioned like that.
Well said.
I’m siding with Dr Who.
He’s been there, all he needs is one sentence.
I think you and 4 others missed my point, its all largely just theory, the big bang THEORY is still a THEORY despite the Doppler effect which implies all galaxies are moving away from one another and despite the fact a lot (NOT ALL) of these so called experts frequently go on the record and pronouncing it as fact.
My comment that blackholes didn’t exist was me being facetious as a counter balance to these theoretical fund seeking blabberings which are frequently pushed out into the ether or Dark matter which ever you prefer. It was only a few years ago that some bright spark decided that spiral galaxies might have a super black hole at their centre, with probably not much more evidence than it might explain all the spiraliness (made up word) and now some fund seeking “experts” claim they now know how much they weigh.
Obviously your the sort of person who doesn’t like to question the status quo, if its written in a book it must be true, I see parallels with your thinking and religion, not exactly following the founding principles of science. where would the world be today if everyone thought like you ?
The issue is the ‘scientific theory’ isn’t the same as a layperson’s understanding of the word ‘theory’. We hear this all the time that from those crazy creationist cracks, evolution isn’t a fact it is a theory. Yet it is as good as a scientific fact as we will get – everything in science is a theory and nothing is ever 100%, it is constantly testing hypotheses and validating predictions to diminish that 0.01% change of it not being so even further.
So new evidence is highly unlikely to overturn evolutionary theory but it may help to define the process further. In the same manner the testing of hypothesis on black holes and making predictions isn’t as solid as evolution but it is predictable in principle, and the reason we can hypothesise the size of this black hole is the direct result of prediction and testing those predictions, until it is fact.
As American Association for the Advancement of Science states:
“A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not “guesses” but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than “just a theory.” It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact.”
So I do not so much see parallels with your thinking and religion dogma, but your thinking exactly parallels those nutty creationists, ouch!
“where would the world be today if everyone thought like you?”
I would guess a lot fucking further down the road than a world that has to deal with creationists and nut jobs of another flavour every fucking day.
You just dug yourself into the biggest black hole I’ve ever heard of, so this article is completely false.
Best fucking slamdown ever! I give you half of my internets, past, present and future.
Cheers, I am personal proud of that one. I’d be prouder if I had an edit button for typos and such, but I think the point stands up.
I most say it is a bugbear of mine, when laypeople go against the wisdom of professional people that do a highly technical jobs for decades. They must have brought the Daily Mail or read a crack article, and then disregard the 10,000 professional articles that say otherwise. Laypeople don’t need to counter science, the science world is constantly changing and challenging itself without the unqualified jumping in. I can’t do the maths so it would be unwise of myself to try and counter or question any science. But I don’t need to, if a scientist jumps in with a crank paper the scientific world will jump on it and rip it apart, it is what they do all the time. Here is Mr. Tennent’s so called closed off science world in action:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion#Response_and_fallout
You’ve latched onto the idea Im anti science which I am most certainly not, I fully understand that theories are the seeds of science and I have very little time for religion but clearly your on a mission to show everyone how clever you are and cant possible admit you have misunderstood what I have said because that would nullify all your hard work.
You really do have a high opinion of yourself dont you, never mind the fact that most of the so called wisdom you are so vociferously defending will in all likelihood be overturned in a few years with another set of theories rendering your argument defunct. and leave you looking somewhat arrogant and foolish for pretending to have understood them.
You have the misinformed ego of a 17 year old who thinks he knows everything and has latched onto the subject of science as if that alone will validate your superiority, and you are only too eager to attack others who at first glance appear to have opinions which run contrary to your own.
I think we both know what a theory is we don’t need to google it and copy and paste to express our intellectualism to the wider world. I would say judging by the heavy ! sarcasm imbued in your original post which is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of my some what glib one line remark and your use of expletives to express your anger that your remarks may have been misplaced. I would say yes there are parallels with your thinking and that of religion. zealots (not specifically referring to you) tend to gravitate (no pun intended) to what ever their peer group adheres to although religion has more than its fair share, science is most definitely not immune.
quote
“It throws some of the existing theory about formation and growth of black holes—and therefore the fundamental dynamics of the universe—out of the window. Back to the books, physicists”
Blackholes are still a theory they haven’t been directly observed despite xray emissions and the strange movement of nearby stars, yet the meerest suggestion otherwise no matter how facetious is met with scorn and has you frothing at the mouth.
All I was ever basically saying is we shouldn’t worship at the font of science and accept every half backed theory which as this article states is usually overturned within a space of a few short years. if you disagree with that then yes you are a zealot.
Don’t misread the expletives, I ain’t angry, scornful or frothing, they were placed their to highlight how ‘fucking stupid’ this sounds, not just ‘stupid’ but ‘fucking stupid’. I am mocking, and the expletives are purely there to add insult to injury – they were actually invented to be used in such encounters, if you don’t use them you’ll lose them.
I think it may be wise in such cases for laypeople to back themselves up with official quotes from people that know better than themselves, I may or may not be intellectual but I am light years from being an expert on astrophysics.
Your quote from the base of the article reads:
“It throws some of the existing theory about formation and growth of black holes—and therefore the fundamental dynamics of the universe—out of the window. Back to the books, physicists”
That doesn’t even allure to what you were originally saying about theory or black holes not existing. The quote doesn’t suggest for a moment that black holes don’t exist, it merely questions formation and growth of them, they can’t grow and form if they don’t exist, can they? This is science in action to be tested, modelled and predicted upon. This article we are commenting on here, that you ridicule, is doing exactly what you are saying science doesn’t do, questioning itself. Questioning our understanding of the fundamental dynamics of the universe.
How do you suggest they directly observe something light years away that sucks in light? Can’t wait for that fucking gem. We are never going to directly observe a black hole, never, so therefore in your understanding they will never exist. The movement of the nearby stars isn’t strange, it is understandable, it only becomes strange once you conclude black holes don’t exist. You have a huge ‘fucking’ void between not fully understanding something and plainly saying something doesn’t exist as we don’t fully understand it.
When was the last time that someone directly observed gravity? Just like black holes we can observe the effects of gravity but not gravity itself, so therefore gravity doesn’t exist because we haven’t directly observed it, and I am therefore floating as I type this, brilliant.
It seems that every time you are commenting on this you are diluting the argument on your side further, and that is saying a lot considering you didn’t have a leg to stand on from the start – the original one liner had a strange sort of weight with its ambiguous nature.
No hard feeling on my side, but you are just plainly wrong, and I ain’t the person to say that is a good point when it is the opposite of a good point. Your best response may have been to say it was a joke, and that I was a humourless idiot – I reckon you could have pulled than one off.
I ain’t a zealot to accept the professional scientific world that questions and challenges itself everyday, and if in the future it gets overturned or refined then I would equally accept that. As a professional expert it would be wise to question and test this article, and it will be tested and concluded upon in a good time. But it would be very unwise as a layperson to go against the viewpoint of the scientific world. On what basis do you or I have to question it? Are you more qualified? Have more working experience? Are you driving to a huge telescope in the middle of the desert every working day of your life? Most likely not, otherwise I don’t think you would be saying what you are saying. Science questions and tests itself enough already without the unqualified questioning it further.
And don’t say, ‘All I was ever basically saying is we shouldn’t worship at the font of science and accept every half backed theory.’ Because you plainly didn’t ‘fucking’ say that, did you now? And by using the term ‘font of science’ it allures to a deep misunderstanding what science is, and hints at a religious obstacle that you may be getting blocked by – as only a believe would use the a silly phrase like ‘font of science’. It is starting to become clear.
For your information what you said was:
“They haven’t discovered it they’ve theorised it due largely to the fact they don’t exist!”
That is the original comment I mock so, and by standing by that and defending it you are completely wrong. You are entitled to your opinion but don’t confuse that with being entitled to you opinion being right – it isn’t.
But my work here is now done, I can’t waste any more time on this, I’m enjoying the likes and praise from others but it is getting tiresome. I am coming to the conclusion that you are blinded by some deep set value, maybe religious value, that needs to be overturned for you to move on beyond that, if that is not the case I apologise. And I apologise again because if it isn’t your deep set religious value holding back your free thinking then I can only conclude, in the face of scientific wisdom, much worse – sorry.
Wow you’ve got far too much time on your hands and judging by the length of the post you are very angry so lets not pretend otherwise. You clearly don’t understand my original comment so let me try one more time to break it down for you.
article quote
“scientists have just discovered the biggest ever black hole, which weighs 17 billion times as much as our Sun”
My quote
“They haven’t discovered it they’ve theorised it”
The second half of my comment
“due largely to the fact they don’t exist”
I was effectively saying they cant even definitively prove their existence, so how can they proclaim this as a discovery, it was glib facetious remark which was obviously wasted on you, subtlety is rarely the preserve of the zealot. My overiding point is Im fed up with scientific theories being presented as fact with words like discovered by certain members of the scientific and journalistic community. The consequences of which is people like you latch onto as fact, thats exactly what I meant, I know I wrote it so stop spitting all over your lap top proclaiming I meant all science is shit and black holes literally don’t exist, and the subtext of which is Im some kind of religious nutter who hates science.
I do NOT hate science. Im NOT remotely religious. I do NOT believe in creationism. and I do NOT read the daily mail or any other tabloid Or any number of other false and predictable observations people like you may impart onto people YOU THINK you disagree with, to lower myself briefly to your juvenile standards of literature go fuck yourself !
You make a brilliant point, everything I said was a mistake, your original comment was definitely not completely fucking stupid as I previously thought. I am sorry to waste your time and my own time on a statement that was so incredibly intelligent and well thought out. I commend you.
Will you be writing a book on your musings, I’d love to read that. Wow, what a treat that would be.
Theres nothing wrong with anything you said if you were indeed arguing with someone who meant what you thought they’d meant, but unfortunately thats simply not the case, despite your rather egotistical belief that your original comment was so awesome that I would back away from what you thought I meant, what was it you said “Your best response may have been to say it was a joke” would that have met with your approval ? see I can do sarcasm too.
You should have at least realised that I do not back away from arguments and if I had meant it literally we would be having an argument about their existence, but as it stands only you have been doing that, trying to bombard me with facts observations and THEORIES you THINK I am unaware of, and show the world how clever you are.
I think Ive now made it quite clear what I meant, if you want to continue arguing with an imaginary adversary thats up to you. I think your sarcasm has run its course but you might want to tone it down a bit in future, you might think its clever but then again so do 14 year olds, most people grow out of it.
JFC
Awesome. Never have a read such a well written ‘bitch slapping’ by both parties.
Maybe in a broader context, so many things are presented as fact. Even as human beings we communicate so many things as fact, ‘you are’, ‘it is’, ‘I am’ etc. Perhaps the semantics of theory and fact are at play here, more than anything else.
Admittedly that one liner did beg for a response but one as acrid as that, personally I don’t think so.
Anyway guys, what an enjoyable read, you both raise some good points. Maybe the most salient point is that it provoked a debate, that it turned into a bit of a pissing contest isn’t so great.
As Holly said in Red Dwarf, “Well, the thing about a black hole – its main distinguishing feature – is it’s black. And the thing about space, the colour of space, your basic space colour, is black. So how are you supposed to see them?”
Thank you for taking a balanced view of the proceedings to be fair to markcgrant I think I was trying to be a little bit too cleaver for my own good with my original post and can see how it could have been interpreted the wrong way, although that doesn’t explain why he the proceeded to effectively argue with himself after I had explained my comment.
If I have any issue with Blackholes its not as markcgrant suggested out of some underlying religious values, its with what lies at the heart of the theory of blackholes namely singularities I have an problem with, which applies equally to the big bang theory. I think singularities are nothing more than the scientific equivalent of Adam and Eve born out of a frustration of not being able to comprehend infinity, conversely singularities are no less incomprehensible but seemingly scientists / human beings are more comfortable with the concept of singularities as opposed to infinity, perhaps its because they can squash everything up into single point throw the laws of physics out the window and push it to one side.
Although I did mention Fund seeking scientist as the chief culprits when communicating theory as fact, I think its largely the fault of the media, who either don’t fully understand the science or they feel the need to dress it up to present a more compelling story. But more broadly I think your right its a symptom of the human condition we all do it at some point or another, I know I do much to the annoyance of people around me but I have in recent years endeavoured to correct myself when I do
Nicely done. But you’ll have to forgive markcgrant for his interpretation of your comment. In your defence it was just a ‘one liner’ and as such required a lot of interpretation, an interpret he did! I do share markcgrant’s point of view in some regard. Dogma is dogma however, whether it’s religious or scientific. Religious dogma for so long could never be challenged, science under the banner of truth and fact could. The irony is of course that science can have it’s own dogma defended as vigorously as that of religion.
Black holes are still just a theory, a we’ll researched and studied theory, it may always be.
Unfortunately I think you touched a nerve, I can understand that. Hindsight’s a wonderful thing.
Evolution is a great example mark raised, entirely relevant to this subject. Its starts off as creationism, then natural selection, random genetic mutation, epi-genetics, the point is the theory evolves as our understanding grows.
I certainly share your annoyance at information in general be presented as fact. We are kind of programmed that way, to my mind we want it that way. I believe because we can’t handle the shear complexity of the ‘truth’, and who’s truth anyway but oneself.
Hats off to both of you, an enjoyable read, fiercely debated, never lose that!