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David Cameron, being the pandering politician that he is, has promised us a referendum on Britain being part of the European Union (as long as the Conservatives win the next election, that is). Although this isn’t strictly a classic Gizmodo topic, it’s sure as hell important. So before the whole country gets to have its say, what’s your opinion?
Personally, I’ve gotta say that I’m against leaving Europe. Sure, the nit-picking regulations are a pain, and there are certainly budgetary things that need changing — I’m not really sure that subsidising French farmers is in our best interests, for example. But overall, being part of the EU reaps untold economic benefits for pretty much everyone, individuals and businesses included.
My fear is, though, that in a referendum campaign, the voice of reason and economic sense will be muscled out by impassioned braying about immigrants stealing jobs, cut-price European goods undermining our businesses, and EU bureaucracy. This, in turn, could lead to us voluntarily jumping out of the EU, and murdering our future economic prospects. What do you reckon, though — should we have a referendum on Europe, and if so, which way are you going to vote?
Stunning Humidifier Makes Me Forget How Much I Hate Winter, Or Anything
Woz: I Hate the Cloud
Why I Hate Helvetica
If every country in europe had a referendum then it would be no more. Well I suppose there might be a few eastern european hold outs for a while but I reckon it would fall apart fast.
A common market was a great idea as were several other things but the unwieldy and misfunctional joint government and currency schemes are an abject failure. They’ve been poorly implemented and I dare say always will be. Neither one thing nor the other. There may be a few disadvantages to leaving but will they really add up to our massive contribution to the EU?
Totally agree the thing that grates me the most is all the people on the left scare mongering that it will lead to economic disaster, how on earth do other countries outside the EU survive I wonder. Its particularly annoying that they don’t want us to have a say, The reason why ALL of the left want to join the EU/ Euro is because they resent the british public sitting on the centre ground politically and not voting for parties with far left policies, they want to circumvent British opinion / democracy and have Europe force they’re somewhat left wing ideals on us.
They’ve been boiling a lobster for the past 38 years with one little policy change after another bypassing democracy its about time we had our say. And if we vote out they better not make us vote again like they did with Ireland.
I doubt leftist agenda is at play here.
Gota ask yourself tho, why is it the right is split but the left is in wholesale support of signing up to europe without giving the public a vote, the lib dems for example want to sign us up to the Euro even in its current state. why are they ALL so desperate to join ? what is it they all think Europe offers them ? Whats the phycological pattern ?
Haha. I don’t know why.. but I just read your comment out, as if you were whispering it to me.
Liberal Democrats = Far from being leftist (in the name).
And leftists, by nature, are nationalists. So I doubt they’d support cross border integration. But then, what do I know.
Im abstracting the definition of left wing somewhat i.e. liberal and conservative, communist and capitalist all being defined as left or right
Wut? The entirety of Europe is (to one extent or another) solidly on the right of the political spectrum!
http://www.politicalcompass.org/euchart
No the undemocratic European bureaucrats (not the entirety of Europe) are solidly on the Left (not right). you only need look at the majority of they’re policies. If the the average joe in Europe was actually given a meaningful vote on the bureaucrats which run Europe the left might not be so keen to join. Personally Im more in the centre ground of politics before anyone assumes my left wing bashing constitutes being a daily mail reader and I would like to maintain my right to vote.
Agree
I reckon the cost and stress outweighs the benefits – I think we’ll still keep some trade. But I have absolutely no clue whatsoever.
I think we’ll keep trade, but without a free trade area there’ll be tariffs that will ruin everything for everyone
Wasn’t there that quote that it cost us £60 per person per year to be in the EU? It can’t be more than that. And that was a decade ago.
Is the free trade agreement not older than and separate to the EU?
There’s nothing stopping us remaining part of the free trade agreement, but getting on with our own internal affairs.
It’s not just free trade though — free trade is one of several components of economic union, which includes other stuff like standardisation of standards and units, free movement of labour…if we lose out on those, we lose the beauty of comparative advantage.
Then perhaps that’s a necessary part of any renegotiation of the terms of our membership of the EU. Analogous perhaps to the Android OHA – you can tweak and skin, but ultimately it must conform to a regulated set of requirements.
Ultimately this needs to be presented in terms of economic impact for the next 30-50 years – will we be better off fully immersed in the EU; or in shallow end, free to get out and go to the bar or hot tub at any point we want?
Yep, I think we should boot Europe from the EU. Think of the savings!
Oh, and bring back the Empire. Commonwealth just doesn’t have the same power behind the word…
If it was a choice between the EU or having the Empire back, it’d be a far easier decision
I think you’ll find that most of the world outside Europe would agree with you
I think that every country that England has ever owned / ruled should cede power to us, (that would basically leave us, The British Empire, China, Russia & a few odds and ends no one really cares about
); there are advantages;
1) think how easy geopolitics would become
2) the use of English as a first language in a large portion of the world
3) Easier taxation
4) Less trade barriers
5) We’d be in charge
6) Us Aussies would man every bar!
Exactly, each nation would play to their strengths in making The British Empire THE GREAT BRITISH EMPIRE
You do now.
You sure you would be in charge? and not some old lady or chap? or a spoilt young man?
Was it easir taxation when it was in the old days?
Use of your own language is one thing, use of your word and being/allowed to be heard is another, make sure you dont confuse the two!
Less trade barriers for you? or for some people up above the sky?
Disadvantages outweighs the advantages by a large margin…
Of course unless you are sarcastic is another story…
it was meant very tongue-in-cheek
So you would have Oceania, Eurasia and Eastasia? George Orwell would be proud..
We’ve got Big Brother already so why not eh
I’m no expert in these matters, but since everyone is wording it like this then I’ve gotta ask. Are you sure we’re trying to leave Europe, and not the European Union?
Is your question about the difference between geography and politics?
To be honest I don’t even know, I’d have thought they meant EU but since everyone is saying Europe I’m confused.
Definitely Europe, too cold. I’ve been digging under dover for a while now and we’re almost ready to cast off for the caribbean.
Sounds like a plan! I’ll start digging under my end. When the wind starts blowing in the right direction you cast off the Chunnnel and we’re away.
I agree about Europe – better in than out. Do I hate Europe? Less than I hate Cameron. The Greeks, Italians and Spanish all have lots of olive oil, we got Cameron, our own oil slick.
There are a lot of things wrong about the way Europe works but it would be better to fix these than retreat into a medieval set of little kingdoms again.
If it came to a referendum, I’d vote to stay in, perhaps a bit of renegotiating but essentially stay in. I would love to have the power to push through a quiz on Europe, with a pass mark of about 75%, that everyone had to take before they qualified for a vote. My concern is that most people will vote the way the Daily Fail and the Sun tell them to.
I can see us out of Europe if we allow ourselves to sleepwalk into a free vote.
Amen
It’s possible to love Europe and hate the EU you know.
Just because we want to be friends and trade with other European countries, it doesn’t mean that we should be forming a undemocratic super-state.
Your arguments about free trade are pretty nonsensical too: the EU is preventing us from negotiating our own free trade deals with Canada, India and China.
The idea that the EU wouldn’t agree to a free trade deal with a post EU UK when their WTO agreements mandate that they must and that we export much more to the EU than we import is ridiculous.
Without our EU contributions taxes could be lower, without EU regulations, our regulation could be better tailored to our businesses (yes we’d have to obey EU regulations when we export to the EU – just as we must when exporting to America).
After Blair in my opinion Cameron is positively normal, although I’d choose Boris Johnson over him every day of the week.
Actually I think that it won’t be as bad as people think if the UK leaves. The major benefit of the EU is commerce but people forget that the UK produces practically nothing. The UK basically runs off of services and banking which have relatively little to do with a single market. And the things that we do need from the EU can be negotiated individually with bilateral agreements like Switzerland.
I also think that it might give the UK a kick up the arse into sorting shit out. Then again it might go the other way and things could go completely to shit. Who knows.
One definite negative though is that to even get the referendum we would have to vote in the Conservatives again (not that labour or lib dems are any better).
I prefer the hybrid solution being proposed: Exiting the European Union (or staying in under heavily revised terms), while maintaining close economic ties that we voted for back in 1973. Think Norway.
No-one is suggesting it’s an “In/Out” question. More that the EU is a bloated mess of an organisation that we don’t get very much back from outside of bureaucratic BS, meddling in domestic policy and a hefty bill.
There’s arguments on both sides…but as it stands, I like the cut of Cameron’s jib.
Forget Norway!
+1 Mr FlynnDean
The issue is the marketing of it – out of Europe means the above, ditching the bureaucratic nonsense that’s keeping thousands of lawyers employed and stopping us extraditing terrorists, not the complete withdrawal from the trade agreements.
Actually it’s the European Court of Human Rights that is preventing us from extraditing terrorists etc, which is separate from the EU so we’d still have the same problems in that area if we left the EU
Would that not depend on the level of bureaucratic involvement that was negotiated?
I wouldn’t mind the UK leaving Europe, maybe we could go somewhere sunnier with nicer weather?
I’m erring on the side of a partial withdrawal – from a regulatory point of view, and the fact that based on presented evidence, we do seem to be getting a raw deal as to what the treasury pays into the EU even if the money is then recuperated through the less traceable private sector.
I see no reason why we couldn’t remain close trade partners with the core EU member states (as part of Europe), but stay out of the fiscal and legal quagmire into which we seem to be perpetually being drawn.
The Eurozone (and by extension the apparent goals of the EU itself) will only ever work properly if there is one currency, one system of taxation, one economy, and one central government overseeing it all.
You can’t tie many radically different economies together (even with the stringent entry criteria and assuming they’re actually adhered to) with one currency and assume that it’s somehow going to just come together nicely without forming one giant federal state.
I don’t believe that’s a party we want to be part of, because if we do make it out alive, we’ll probably have caught something incurable.
“I see no reason why we couldn’t remain close trade partners with the core EU member states” because if we pull out of Europe we will massively destabilise the EU both internally and in the eyes of international markets causing further stress on the already stressed Euro. The reason we got such a bad deal when we entered the EEC (as it was) was because France and Germany were pissed off with us for not joining sooner, you think they are going to be happy about us going?
We’re not, and to the best of my knowledge at present have no long term plans to join the single currency. From a bureaucratic perspective France and Germany are already hacked off with the stance we take, so removing that angst from the political side of things I doubt would be missed that much.
They either have to redress the balance of our contributions to the EU (i.e. withdrawing the shafting implement inserted when we signed up to the EEC*), or we can exercise our right to leave them to it.
*Is it just me that preferred the ECU to the Euro?
This ^
DOH! should have been a reply to Someone Else (appropriately)
Threaded comments FTW
It was
Yeah, I’m sick and tired of hearing “The Final Countdown”
Actually I thought that was one of their better tracks
“Friday” is one of Rebecca Blacks “better tracks”, that isn’t a recommendation.
Touché
Worst case scenario would be if the UK left the EU and Scotland voted to leave the union, both having a negative effect to our economy. We could end up in the shitter for quite some time.
I wouldn’t mind leaving the EU if it meant we’d be more like the Swiss. Don’t see that happening though (different economies etc.). It’s also strange that Norway and Iceland really want to join.
So, to echo what’s been said. We need a different arrangement with the EU. We should only allow hot female Romanians and Bulgarians into the country. In fact just limit all immigrants to hot women. That should settle the matter once and for all.
I’d also like a massive bridge connecting us to France.
Haha. Rightly said. That seems to be the only benefit we get from Romania and Bulgaria.
I think you massively misjudge the effect of scotland leaving the UK.
I think the Scotland issue is completely baseless and ludicrously exaggerated. A referendum about independent Scotland should put this to rest.
I think it’d pretty neutral for the UK and short to medium term disasterous for scotland. I also think scotland wants to pray england never gets a vote on the matter because I reckon there’d be a higher propertion this side of the border that would vote for separation (especially if we can leave them northern ireland).
I don’t think England getting a vote on the matter makes any sense. I like Scots and their lovable gingeriness, and would love for them to stay. Is Alex Salmond really a promising personality anyone would want to rely on?
It makes as much sense as giving scotland one. The UK was a uunion of the two nations not an annexation by one or the other. In fact it was a scottish king becoming (also) an english one that triggered it all. By rights we ought to get an equal say in a potential dissolution, especially as what they are proposing is to unilaterally leave all their british responsibilities, no reason England shouldn’t be able to do the same. If theres talk of dissolving the union then I dont see it as simple as one part just wandering off into the distance.
Scots leaving is one thing, but Scots leaving, then joining the EU and benefitting from trade agreements with member countries is another thing altogether. Agreements we may potentially not be able to take advantage of.
We’ll probably end up in such dire straits that those old coal mines will have to be reopened.
If we hadn’t flooded them they’d probably have been reopened already. such a waste. I can’t see it would be any worse with scotland in the EU than it would with us leaving and france, or ireland in the EU. I think scotland would get a nasty shock about how much the EU would want to be paid especially as they’d be going cap in hand not in a strong position bargaining for a rebate like the UK did originally.
Ireland is in and they aren’t doing so well. No doubt our government COULD mess it all up by imposing restrictions but if they didnt they could also create an advantage for us by being flexible. It’s not really predictable as it relies on our politicians actions but I certainly dont see a scotland in the EU as a specific threat over any other country in the EU.
Hmm, Wonder what we’d do about infrastructure links? Cut the phone lines at the border?
I think England should leave the EU and Scotland should leave the UK.. Mostly because I am back in NZ now and it would be funny watching things unravel from a distance
Hah, that’s right. We’ll leave, Scotland, Iceland and Norway will then go and join. After which the EU decides to impose currency trading and other light restrictions on the poorer nations after what’s happened, making the ‘EU proper’ even stronger. And before you know it, we’ll be knocking on the door again with our hands held out!
EU needs to unify its military, science (inc. medicine) and technology. Those disciplines would then progress further, faster and we’d benefit as a whole. And that’s before we see trillions of investment in infrastructure.
Welcome to Neo-Europe 2040. *gasp!!*
The problem with a public referendum is that the general public, in general, are idiots.
Not necessarily – it might be that most people just get their world view from the tabloids. In the end the difference between an idiot and a tabloid reader might not be discernible.
Only an idiot would buy a tabloid newspaper? If most people get their world view from a tabloid then they are idiots.
Sadly:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_the_United_Kingdom_by_circulation
Or, as has been said before:
Times readers run the country,
Telegraph readers think they run the country,
Guardian readers wish they ran the country,
Mirror readers would run the country if the Times readers didn’t run it already,
Mail readers don’t know who runs the country,
Express readers don’t care who runs the country,
and Sun readers don’t give a damn who runs the country as long as her measurements exceed 38-24-36.
points for the “Yes Prime Minister” quote!
The EU has brought endless benefit, help, support and growth to all member states over the past few decades. Why there is such a huge obsession within the UK about leaving can only be put down to an ill-informed population who are controlled by the sensationalits press (Notably The Daily Mail who rarely have anything good to say about anything) The truth is that the UK is stuck in the mindset of its imperial past. The future lies in co-operation and integration. You no longer rule the world and have not done so for the best part of a century. Its time to open your minds to what the EU has done for you.
Spank 86 – The single currency has not been an abject failure. That is a notion blonging to the British press. Blaming the economic meltdown on the Euro is not justifiable or true. The economic meltdown affected the entire world regardless of currency and it even hit the UK hard. The Euro has had its troubles and a huge project like the Euro will always present problems but overall it has been a huge success (and I have been running business’ in eurozone countries)
Alfred Hef – Boot the EU and make savings…? What about the losses..? Money put into the EU in invested in EU projects such as roads and infastructure. Granted the roads may be built in Poland and not the UK but dont forget that this facilitates more efficiant transportation of goods to UK delivering huge savings which in turn allow you to purchase cheaper goods in the UK, and that is just one example.
Main article – Subsidising French farmers..? Do you forget that UK farmers are also subsidised..? Keeping an industry alive and people in work. I agree that CAP needs reform but the problems are not just down to it being an EU policy. Many of the agricultural industries problems stem from the giant supermarkets. Many of whom are british. Leave the EU and you can gaurantee a sharp rise in basic food items, especially British produce.
And as for the Immigrants stealing jobs argument, this is turning the UK into a breeding ground of hatred and racism. They are not stealing jobs..!!! People a products they are there to sell themselves and their skills. As an employer I want to hire the best person for the job not the British person for the job. The people of England need to realise that it is a tough world out there and to suceed you need to be the best and to sell yourself into the employment market. You will not be given a job because you are British you will be given a job because you are the best. (and lest not forget the millions of British people around the world working in other countries such as USA, Australia, Ireland, China, India etc – Are they Stealing jobs or are they just sellng themselves onto the international jobs market…
Its time for the UK to get on board and get involved. For European nations to come together. We can all retain our individual cultures and characters and freedoms while working under a unified economic system. Just remember Germany used to be a collection of tiny states hundreds of years ago and unity has served them well…
Why is it that any criticism of the EU is attributed to Daily Mail propaganda and “imperial” mindsets? Looks like a case of playing the man rather than the ball.
The euro has been a failure if measured in terms of creating economic efficiency and harmonisation (which were the reasons for its introduction). The fact that it created a monetary union with no fiscal union meant that it was inevitable that the massive financial imbalanced seen across the eurozone today would occur.
As for the CAP, saying that it lowers prices is nonsense given the trade barriers to non-EU states that it establishes. Abolish it and the money could be better spent elsewhere whilst consumers would enjoy cheaper goods.
On the subject of immigrants I actually agree with you completely. Allowing the free movement of EU citizens is one of the EU’s greatest achievements. People who complain that Poles are stealing their jobs are just saying that they wouldn’t deign to work for the salary that the Poles are happy to take.
I agree that the UK should have a greater involvement in the EU but as I said below, until the EU acknowledges that there it has systematic problems that need to be solved then it’s pointless. How can you negotiate with someone who thinks that they’re infallible?
Perfect.
If we leave Europe, the first thing that will happen is an import tax will be introduced on all items sold over there. Boom, England has no Economy left. Have fun in Post-Europe England, I sure as hell won’t be here.
Has anyone actually thought about the trade situation before the EU? How is it any different from a multilateral agreement from a nation outside the EU? We would still be trading with the same countries, but we will not share the self inflicted bureaucratic burden that it imposes. Surely, you are not well aquainted with economics.
Before the EU we actually had an Economy. In it’s current state pretty much all of our industry is dependant on Europe in one way or another. Take our currently thriving car industry, all the companies that are coming over here with the plan on selling a large percentage of the cars they make to the European Market thanks to the open markets. If we left the Euro, they would all move to Germany, France, Sweden, etc. as the UK market makes up a small proportion of the Euro.
To quote the Ford Europe director, “All countries should have their sovereignty, but don’t discuss leaving a trading partner where 50pc of your exports go, that would be devastating for the UK economy.”
*Europe
Then we’ll just respond with an import tax on everything made in europe bang goes a large percentage of BMW sales, up go Jaguar Land rover sales. No economy indeed what about trade with China and the US two things which are greatly hindered by membership of the EU.
Like the way that we have no trade with america or any other non-EU country you mean?
My problem with the EU is that it is continually demanding greater transfers of sovereignty from national governments whilst refusing to reform, let alone acknowledge, many of its enormous structural and operational problems.
For an organisation that claims to champion free trade, it seems perverse that the majority of its budget is spent on the Common Agricultural Policy which mainly serves to subsidise French farmers at the cost of farmers in developing nations and European consumers. Of course, since the French have always seen the EU as being a bulwark against “Anglo-Saxon” nations, this will never change for as long as they are an EU member.
I also find the lack of accountability of EU politicians deeply disturbing. When was the last time a member of the Commission or Council ever acknowledged that reform was needed or that the EU needed to change in some regard? The fact that Jean-Claude Junker’s reaction to the sovereign debt crisis was that “the solution is more Europe” shows how far removed from reality they are.
I’m afraid that if the prospect of their third largest economy leaving the EU doesn’t make the EU even consider some reforms then I think that in the long-run it’s destined for the scrap heap anyway and we should leave.
Bravo my thoughts exactly apart from that bit about Jean-Claude Junker’s I don’t know who he is which kind of reinforces your point somewhat
Prime Minister of Luxembourg, President of the Eurogroup and all-round Eurocrat.
“My problem with the EU is that it is continually demanding greater transfers of sovereignty…”
I think you are missing the whole point of a United Europe, now the biggest economic power in the world – bigger than the USA and China. As a world power what is the UK in regard to doing deals with USA, China, Japan, Russia – we don’t have any power in that regard outside of Europe, the only way we have a voice is within Europe. And what are we as a military power outside of Europe? A under-armed country that can be rolled over any day of the week.
The fact than we are the 3rd largest economy, in what you deem a rubbish failing Europe, says it all – we ain’t all that. A few years outside of Europe and we wouldn’t make a top 20 list. 25 years outside of Europe and Germany is the European Union, rather than balanced Anglo-French-German Europe we have today, our children will need to learn German to do European business and get thrown a few scrapes in return – woo-a-dee-do!
I don’t think anyone claims Europe to be a perfect place, policy maybe needs addressing and reform is maybe wanting. But pulling out of the European Union because things need addressing is completely stupid – you can’t decorate a house while you stand outside looking in through a window.
Saying things need addressing is one thing, pulling out of the EU is another – it’s like a teenager cutting off his head because he has acne – that fucking stupid, no…. worse.
The UK was doing just fine before the EU came along, I’m sorry to point out. When you are in Europe, and you trade with Europe, you are shackled by their sluggish growth. If we trade we China or Brazil, we can ride their growth wave to a better economy. The European market is saturated and has no potential for growth.
Also, I suggest you stick to one point, while making your argument, or your comment would seem like a rant to some.
When the foundations of the EU came into place some 50 odd years ago, we were a few years out of world war. Remember that big war that we got our arse kicked in, and only because of Russia (Russian weather), foolish stubborn calls from the Axis, and the USA jumping in to save the day did we win. Burdened with vast debt that we only cleared in 2006, some 50 years later. Your definition of ‘fine’ is odd. And even with this ‘sluggish growth’ Europe has grown to have the biggest economy in the world, it pisses on China and the US.
Interestingly, a world war could happen again but in today’s climate a European nation could not fight another European nation without pitting itself against the rest of Europe.
And if you trade with China it doesn’t mean that you grow with their economy, in all likely hood, we are just a small trade partner amongst others buying cheap goods – helping to build them at no real benefit to us.
I like cheap electrics, currently imported into Holland from Asia and distributed openly throughout Europe from there. If you are trading directly with Asia outside of that network, then you can safely put at least an extra 10% on all your electrical goods.
I agree with you in principle but we’ve been in so long and nothing seems to change in our favour, in fact we seem to be losing more than we gain by a long chalk and nowadays I think that our country and our population would actually benefit more from being out than in; and your analogy about being outside the house is simplistic as we’ve been in a long time only really to our detriment and haven’t changed anything to the positive.
We have done OK:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6455879.stm
A lot of those we would have had regardless and there are more EU citizens who come here to work and receive benefits than there are going the other way.
“A lot of those we would have had regardless”
I’d like to think we are that progressive, but I recall a certain Tory party fighting against fair pay as it would destroy business.
You can’t come here are get unemployment benefit willy-nilly. All EU countries follow the same rules, You can firstly apply to your nation to get your entitlement for jobseeking. Or your have came to a country lost a job and been registered as unemployed for 4 weeks. And that works both ways, something we often forget. If you lose your job in the UK get yourself down to the South of France for 3 months and take your money with you. So I guess on the whole it balances out. Our biggest benefit problem isn’t EU migration, we have the biggest European culture of generations of families being out of work, over the top disability benefits, yet the biggest drain is pensions and working families.
“on the whole it balances out”….really, I’m sure there’s just as many Brits working in Poland, receiving their version of Housing Benefit, Working Family Tax Credit and Child Benefit whilst using their version of the NHS for free as there are Poles working here and receiving those advantages / benefits. I’m not picking on Poles, I doubt there is one country in the EU where there are more Brits working there than there are that country’s citizens working here.
It goes like this, come here, work for a month doing any job (normally supplied by a fellow countryman), bring wife and kids here, lose job (officially), present yourself at local council as homeless with children, claim all benefits possible, receive emergency housing or hostel accommodation (often better than what they came from in their homeland) until they get offered council / housing association property, move in, continue to claim all possible benefits whilst now work within black market or legally enough hours to claim Working Family Tax Credit.
You try doing that in any other European country!
Firstly, we need to ask why a political party that should believe in competitive trade and our freedoms to live, work and travel within Europe wants to do anything to harm that? The reason is that they want to bring in a shed load of rulings and laws that a liberated Europe wouldn’t tolerate.
And when a politician calls for a referendum then that politician has failed to do their job, not like they have been overly successful so far at anything.
The reason we have politics is so that the general population don’t get to make random decisions on our future, which is kinda important. And no offence intended to the general population, but they ain’t up to the job and never will be – too little education, too much baggage and personal opinion to make a good call. Being in Europe isn’t about your opinion, it is about what is best for the future of this country in the long term – if you happen to agree one way or the other, it should never be about your personal wants and needs, hence politics and professionals who can put aside their own wants and needs for the greater good or everyone.
Likely, some 10% of the UK population couldn’t tell you where London is on a map, and probably some 50%+ couldn’t tell you where Brussels is a map. I’ll tell you straight, I don’t want those fuckwits deciding if this country has a future in Europe or not – leave that to the fuckwits we elected.
But, I guess a nation gets the leaders it deserves, says a lot about us all being lead by an inbred idiot-cunt – but never has an inbred idiot-cunt been so deserving for you all.
So really, you’re saying that voters can’t be trusted to make good decisions and that we should defer to politicians’ decisions instead?
If you’re going to be as anti-democratic as that then it’s no wonder that the EU in its current state appeals. As a citizen of Europe, how do I have a say in what van Rompuy or Barroso does? There are three levels between the voter and their appointment and they show no inclination of altering that status quo.
EU diplomats should get off their high horses.
And voters need to be involved in this process. It is their commitment, affection and inclination to help that will bring us out of this mess. Apathy or insensitiveness from 60million members of the EU isn’t in the best of EU’s interests.
“So really, you’re saying that voters can’t be trusted to make good decisions and that we should defer to politicians’ decisions instead?”
That is exactly what I am saying – and that ain’t anti-democratic that is pro-democracy. Giving a general population the right to make direct decisions on their own future is nothing but pure anarchy. These people couldn’t even work an election right, never mind a vote on Europe.
Let’s give the general population the right to vote on taxes, health and education. All well and good, when we all vote to not pay taxes and pump a bunch of money we don’t have into education and health to have the best services in the world. But six months down the road half of us will be boiling boots for food.
This is all part of the cult of the idiot, when everyone feels they have a valid opinion on anything and everything, without engaging with a subject any more than reading a small article in the press. I don’t want unqualified people making major calls regarding my future, who does?
I personally don’t care what the majority viewpoint is, why should I? Being in or out of Europe isn’t about making a popular call, it is about doing the right thing for our long-term future – and if our Prime Minister is incapable of making that call then he shouldn’t be doing the job he is doing. But we all know that his pussy-footing isn’t about making that call for us but keeping his party on side and keeping his job, a job he has now proved he is incapable of doing right.
And this is the sad part, in a time when we need to build this country up quickly and strongly, he has just placed us all fairly and squarely in economic limbo – who is going to invest in this country until the shit has hit the wall? Nobody. We are now in limbo, uncertainty surrounds us, the future in questionable – all because one little man feels his job is bigger than your future and his party is more important than you and me.
I think this country needs change. More than anything we need an end to party politics, an end to people putting aside honour in pursuing partisan loyalty. We need radical independents standing up and making calls for us, always for the greater good of the population and never in the name of holding onto power and control, or worse appeasing a party.
:/ So what you’re saying is..
… the word.
Quote “I personally don’t care what the majority viewpoint is, why should I” Unbelievable !!!! what are you autistic, you are the world and only your opinion counts or do you just blindly trust everything politicians tell you ummmm reminds me of another conversation. Blind trust and singularities.
“…you are the world and only your opinion counts or do you just blindly trust everything politicians tell you…”
I am saying the opposite of that, but you choose to counter it in this manner for your own opinion to be validated. I am invalidating my own opinion and also your own, it doesn’t count for anything. I’m saying I don’t trust the general population to make the right call, whatever that call is, and I include myself and yourself in with the general population. I ain’t giving you or me a special case, on what grounds can I? We are part of this unqualified population. Here we idly chat, with no validation, with no sway or bearing. I didn’t study PPE or European politics, I am a layperson in regard to this, and I shouldn’t have a real say on Europe – that doesn’t mean I don’t have an opinion. Yet we are in all likelihood the informed ones, 90% of the population aren’t even discussing this today or any time soon – and yet you want their opinion to be know and validated – why not ask your pet dog what he thinks while you are at it? If we are going to be asking what the uneducated think on highly learned subjects!
The best defence for not having a referendum is that I wouldn’t want you making an important decision for my future and I guess likewise you wouldn’t want me doing the same, so we extend that notion a little and a referendum is nothing but a bunch a people we don’t trust making an important decision for our future – completely illogical.
The whole reason that we have elections is so that we don’t get into a mess of asking the majority what we should do. Instead all we ask is that they make a bad call every 5 years and leave the rest to the professionals. And the whole reason that this country is ran by Cameron is because we asked the population for their opinion. If they can’t get the minor calls right, maybe it is unwise to but a bigger more serious call in their useless hands.
Trust no one and question everything.
quote “Trust no one and question everything” like black holes for example
Democracy works some better than others, we are being edged slowly into Europe undemocratic piece by undemocratic piece soon we wont have a choice, which judging by your consistently pro european anti referendum stance is probably what you want, but I don’t.
You say we vote every 5 years and that gives politicians a wholesale carte blanche to do whatever they want including giving away our democracy, something which probably wasn’t even in their manifesto, I call that dictatorship by stealth. As for 90% of people not even talking about it today, those 90% probably wont vote on it anyway
“Being in or out of Europe isn’t about making a popular call, it is about doing the right thing for our long-term future – and if our Prime Minister is incapable of making that call then he shouldn’t be doing the job he is doing.”
So if Cameron said we should leave the EU with no referendum or vote on the matter you’d be happy with that? After all, he’d be doing his job then.
As for economic uncertainty, are you seriously telling me that the investment climate in the eurozone is significantly better than the one in the UK? Please…
Back to the EU though, my problem is that if I don’t like the job that Cameron is doing I can vote him out after five years. When do I get a vote for the President of the EU Commission or EU Council?
The people running Europe are becoming more and more insulated from the voters. If the continue to become less and less accountable, how can you honestly claim that it’s democratic?
Your last point is so right.
Let me just point out though, that the debt to GDP ratio for Europe and the UK are more or less equal. So investment climate isn’t great, but UK has a lot of promise.
agreed I would much prefer to invest in a independent flexible economy than a bureaucracy which is standing on the rather wonky legs of dependant nations which will always be dependant with or without fiscal union.
Exactly. It would make us so much more agile and responsive to change. I would never invest in a sluggish mammoth.
“So if Cameron said we should leave the EU with no referendum or vote on the matter you’d be happy with that? After all, he’d be doing his job then.”
Firstly, he wouldn’t make that call. Because while his wider party has issues with Europe he understands the importance of being in the EU, and he doesn’t want his legacy to be ‘the man who destroyed the UK.
But if he made should a call then I’d respect it, I’d disagree with it. But he would show backbone and leadership which is something to respect, and it would be a new feeling, finding something to respect in Cameron.
“As for economic uncertainty, are you seriously telling me that the investment climate in the eurozone is significantly better than the one in the UK? Please…”
No, both are shocking bad right now, but suppose that changes in the next two years, Europe we have investment and the UK will still be in limbo!
“Back to the EU though, my problem is that if I don’t like the job that Cameron is doing I can vote him out after five years. When do I get a vote for the President of the EU Commission or EU Council?”
If you don’t like the job Cameron is doing you don’t get to vote him out, you get to lodge a single vote for someone else – he only gets voted out if everyone agrees with you. And that result directly effects the result of the EU council. If you gave everyone a free vote on EU council then everyone would vote for the person from their own nation, what a mess that would be. And considering the biggest EU population is germany, then you would have a mainly German EU council. So are you indirectly saying you would be far happier if the EU council was exclusively German? Why would you want that?
“The people running Europe are becoming more and more insulated from the voters. If the continue to become less and less accountable, how can you honestly claim that it’s democratic?”
And this is based on…..?
European Union has never worked. In the heyday, its flaws were concealed. There are many inherent problems problem with EU, one of which is the leechers, namely, Poland, Spain and Greece etc. Evidence is in the ratio of numbers migrating from these countries to ones that are migrating to those countries. A sense of entitlement in the population of such countries is devastating. Also, I’m asking you this.. How many of you think Europeans have a unified identity? And how many immigrants actually care about the success of their host country? It’s silly that they don’t even intend to converse in English, when living in the UK.
Treu, Tapfer, Gehorsam!
I wouldn’t worry. Cameron said the referendum is due for after he wins the next election.
So, yeah. Not happening.
You would be amazed at the number of people who would vote against their own best interests and be proud of it.
Look at the welfare bill and how it hits working families. These are the same people who complain about workless scroungers but the benefits bill is mostly In Work Tax Credits and the Pension. They are currently about to start losing tax credits and other allowances and will lose money. Workers rights have been rolled back and we are heading for a triple dip.
Once the election is upon us the Conservatives will try to frame it on Europe and not the disaster which is their handling of the economy. They may well try to push blame on to Europe / foreigners as the cause of economic stagnation. This coupled with the Sun and Daily Mail repeating the lies and fabricating horror stories will help shape public opinion.
People will be given the choice that leaving Europe means bringing jobs back to the UK and better times for all when in reality those jobs will stay in Europe, China, South America and the only difference will be the laws which govern us and the exodus of companies moving to the EU mainland.
From your 11 years experience of being a Political Analyst for 10 Downing Street ?
If you were to offer any kind of educated reply then I could take you seriously but dude you are just a troll.
A political analyst for Number 10 would be party political and not a good measure of how policy would affect the country. Instead they measure how a policy would be greeted by the public.
There are enough stats to prove what I have written. 60% affected by the welfare changes are in work, the UK is the least socially mobile in the west, cheap £1 an hour jobs will not come back to the UK.
Apologies if I seemed to be trolling.
But you just sound like a confused revolutionary.
Again just post a response detailing what you think to be wrong, I might learn something, you never know.
I do not think I have repeated anything that actual political commentators have not said. Cameron is in an internal struggle with the far right in his own party. This is not being done for our benefit.
Something you ail to address is banking. This country makes a lot from being the world banking capital, as it is the base of European banking, monies going in and out of the worlds biggest trade economy. Does anyone think that will remain if we leave Europe? Nah, another European country will steal that title in a flash. If you think this country is doing bad now, wait till you see it without International banking sector.
The thing that staggers me at the moment is their focus on benefits, you expect it from the Tories but in these hard times I find it shocking. Like how a 1% benefit increase is fair for someone already living below the poverty line, because it is fair for people not living below the poverty line. Not just the policy, the whole demonizing of the system and unfair treatment. When we also consider the minor cost of the benefit fraud compared to corporations not paying the right taxes, and the vast money throw at solving a minor benefit problem, compared to nothing throw at trying to increase tax revenue.
Better his lot than the lot that got us in to this mess in the first place!
You can go on youtube and find Cameron from a few years ago, in the House of Commons saying Brown did not deregulate the banks enough. Cameron and Osborne also over that time promised to keep the same government spending so its difficult to blame Labour for the UK or Worldwide economic problems. The country was spending a high amount but the tax income at the time covered it. Since the recession taxes have dropped a lot and unemployment has rises ( hence increased benefits bill ).
Im not sure how you think Cameron / Osborne would have faired better and since last night when the IMF and an ex Bank of England director have both now said Osborne cut too fast and too far and killed off the economic recovery, they seem to have caused much more damage than Labour ever did.
I refer you to my large comment down below.
Yeah, because Osborne does such a great job on the economy…
Really…
I believe 3 parties acted in getting us into this mess, the government that deregulated to give us a fair chance in a equally deregulated world market. The banks that used that new regulation to serve its own interests. And the general population that lied and cheated to obtain loans they shouldn’t have and couldn’t afford.
The government didn’t have much of a choice, the banks functioned to those ground rules, yet the general population acted like pond life.
It was our own personal greed that got us into this mess, and coming to terms with that is the only way to ensure it doesn’t happen again. Why would we give these arse holes a say on Europe?
You do you think is winning the next election? Labour can’t win with the wrong brother in charge, and Lib Dems didn’t stand much of a chance before but since going to bed with the Tories they will need to splinter to even get a 10% vote share.
Get use to that putter face, you are going to see a lot more of it.
Its too early so say at the moment, there really are too many variables this time around. But my take…
1. Lib Dems will collapse. They are polling behind UKIP at the moment and the rank and file of the party, those who Clegg ignores at the party conference each year are deserting. Even if the party faithful remain they have lost a lot of voters, especially students. I would not expect more than 5-8% at the next election.
2. UKIP is growing in strength and some Conservative support have moved across. This is short term and those voters will not vote UKIP at major election, they just like the show. UKIP does not have the finances nor local support / grass roots to do well in the next 3 years.
3. Labour will be up and down depending on the weather. They need to refrain from making stupid statements and infighting. Im not sure but we could see both brothers working side by side though that might not go down well with the public.
4. After April when the tax / benefits changes come in we should see a clearer picture. People will realise what they are losing / paying more for. Whether it is filling in a tax return for child benefit or losing your tax credits or having to move house as your child has gone to Uni, that is when people will start to feel their version of the austerity. So far not much in the way of cuts has hit the public, it has been mostly individuals losing gov / council jobs.
I personally think Cameron is too weak to control his party, the EU speech was to placate them. They know he will bend over backwards to please them but this would go against the collation agreement so he is stuck in the middle.
I good breakdown. And the summer riots will have an impact.
The only reason the Conservatives want to leave the EU is because of certain employment and civil rights laws which they generally do not agree with, as a part of their ideology. It has nothing to do with ‘red tape’ or how terrorists are treated in the courts.
This current shambles of the government and previous ones have had little trouble doing anything they wanted, no matter how illegal or dodgy, regardless of Europe. If we were to leave then those laws would need replacing with similar, but probably worse ones and the public would see little difference.
Trade is with the EU, as a part of the EU, is very important and should not be seen as a small matter, its 50% of our trade and it would be suicidal to even contemplate giving that away. Out of principle France, Germany etc… would not trade with us out of the EU just as they banned our beef long after the crisis.
The problem with the UK is the vested interests controlling anything of worth. As such they drain the country of its wealth without putting anything back. At the moment they are being given the NHS, council services, security etc… as money makers, given they have previously destroyed our manufacturing base. The profits from these ventures all go into off shore accounts so the money leave our economy for good where as previously it went to local companies and workers.
Germany has to abide by the same laws and regulations. They have stronger workers rights and better trade union representation and their companies do better than ours, giving them a stronger economy. The difference is that the German people did away with the parasites long ago, after being dragged into 2 devastating wars.
Duuuude… what did you smoke dude? I have tried “Confused Gorilla” in the past man, but moved on from it when I was 15 ! One love man!!
If you could offer an educated reply, maybe pointing out where you see differently then we could converse, otherwise back under your bridge troll.
Mate, you make accusations of consipiracy, of the highest order.
Do you read the news? Donate enough to the Conservatives and they will give you a place in government and allow you to write policy.
John Nash, Conservative Donor, Appointed Minister In Department For Education
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/01/10/john-nash-education-minister_n_2450363.html
Adrian Beecroft, a venture capitalist and Conservative party donor write welfare policy / employment law and also the dude which owns Wonga ( Cameron advisor just went to work for Wonga )
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/may/23/beecroft-proposals-coalition-support-criticism
Firm established by two Tory donors made millions from work schemes
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jul/29/sovereign-capital-tory-donors-millions
Also you can look and see who set up and pays for Think Tanks. G4S and Serco sponsor the one the government uses to provide ‘evidence’ that services need to be privatised to companies like G4S and Serco.
You seem to be living in the dark.
Hear, hear.
The Tories never do anything “for the greater good”. That much is a given. So you have to look for the money; which of Cameron’s friends benefit most from leaving the EU? Why, the City, of course. They look at France and Germany with their regulations and taxes and are terrified they may become EU-wide.
Just pointing out that your statement..
“The profits from these ventures all go into off shore accounts so the money leave our economy for good where as previously it went to local companies and workers”.
makes anything you say about this matter invalid.
Why exactly?
Virgin Care are taking over NHS services in local communities. Money that was spent by the NHS in those communities is now being diverted into the accounts of Virgin Care. Branson and the Virgin Group off shore all their business. The 5% – 10% of money taken as profit, which would have once stayed in the UK is now gone.
G4S does exactly the same thing. A local council service, however inefficient kept money in local authority, it circulated. To remove even a small % of money from a local economy and divert means it is a loss. For example the council worker you used to pay to answer the phone has been replaced by a worker in India ( as has happened and is happening, look up Barnet Council ). The UK worker is out of a job, on benefits, the money from his wage is now split between private profit, off shored accounts, no tax paid and the Indian worker.
Its simple economics.
EU funding has done a lot in our area of the UK. My current business, and the 30-40 other new businesses in our development would not have existed without EU funding for the project that supported the development of new startups and business growth.
They do a lot more than a lot of people seem to realise to help businesses, create jobs and economic stability in the UK… things the government should be doing but aren’t.
Yeah there are a million and one problems, but there are a lot of advantages as well. From my point of view at least I think we should stay in, but some points do need re-negotiation. The majority of the perceived disadvantages are things that the government could actually sort out but use the EU as scapegoats.
But that’s just my opinion anyway.
We’re not going to leave the EU, there’s no chance.
A quote from today from the German foreign minister: “[Cameron] has put the referendum back in European politics and no one is going to be grateful to him for that.”
The guy who said this is saying ‘this will not help his chances of renegotiating his EU membership’ but I disagree. Cameron won’t allow us to leave the EU whichever way the vote goes. There’s nothing in it for us. However, the very real threat of us leaving will allow us to put an end to things like the Common Agricultural Policy and other things like that.
The fact is that the current EU policies like CAP are keeping our economies in the 80′s. France, for instance should have moved away from agriculture and onto other industries, but they get so much damn subsidy money from the EU that they can keep their farms churning out half as much for twice the profit.
I do not believe for a moment the threat of us leaving will allow us to alter the CAP or many other things. France will not give up the CAP to keep the UK in the EU. They would benefit from us leaving the EU and would most likely tax imports going from France / EU to the UK. We rely on so much imported goods such as food they would have us over a barrel.
I would assume further to that they would generally open their borders so the illegals could more easily get into the UK as was the case a few years ago. We have to expect every other country in the EU to look after their own interests and that of the EU and not that of the UK’s.
The only thing that would see an immediate benefit is the fishing policy but that would cause territorial disputes and could lead to over fishing by UK corporations cashing in on the changes in regulation.
Perhaps we wouldn’t be able to get rid of CAP – I agree that it’s far too valuable to the French, but there are hundreds of other policies that we can negotiate over. Bear in mind we have the third largest economy in Europe, and a relatively strong one at that. All the signs point to us actually overtaking the French very soon, which would make us the second largest behind Germany.
Germany want us to remain in the EU, we do a LOT of trade with them. Now picture a renegotiation of EU membership when you’ve got the two largest economies both wanting the same thing.
All the little hindrances, medium hindrances and many of the large hindrances (personally I can see a renegotiation of CAP happening. Not an eradication, but a renegotiation) are all on the table for negotiation. Removing even a few of these would put us in a better position.
As I say above, I think this is all part of a ploy to secure a renegotiation. Even if we all vote to leave, Cameron doesn’t have to do it.
Overall I think we should leave but to those people who say it doesn’t matter because Labour will win the next election I have this to say:
Are you serious?
When a company (like Jessops or HMV) goes bust because of poor management and debts the receiver is called in whom then appoints a ‘capable’ team to either do whatever it takes to save what they can of the company or wrap it up and try to sell assets, pay debtors etc…
Labour under Blair & Brown took this country and turned it into the almost bankrupt nation that it is today.
They spent all the money we had, sold assets including our gold at rock bottom prices and then borrowed more all to keep up the appearance that they knew what they were doing whilst they helped create an atmosphere of benefits where the State pays people for doing nothing, multi-generational families living in council houses just creating more readers for the Daily Mirror. and I could go on but suffice to say this was all done when the UK was enjoying a boom in business, money was pouring in but they kept finding ways to spend more and didn’t save a damn penny!
Now the receivers are in control, trying their best to turn the situation around and because there’s some cuts, a little bit of pain you think the sensible idea is to let the previous management team have another go!
Seriously…?
I do not blame Labor for their mistakes. After all, that was the trend across most of the western world. They were just trying to fit in.
I’m not saying some of their choices weren’t understandable but I don’t think letting them have another go is the answer.
Your analogy is flawed in that in business there are usually more than two sets of management to choose from over and over again.
We’re now heading into the triple-dip recession – while the rest of the world is well on its way out of the worst trouble. That tells me the current management isn’t exactly doing their job either. And I don’t think UKIP or Greens are the solution.
Really, all we need is a balance. Some Labor, Some conservative. Agreed that Labor can bring us back to growth, but our debt is sure to grow with it.
If the last 5 years taught us anything is that a growing _safe_ debt is better than a falling _unsafe_ debt, in constant danger of down-grading.
That’s the American way, which has its own flaws. So we need some austerity as well, to go with it.
That said, whenever possible I still vote Lib-Dems, a glutton for punishment that I am
You not seen the latest figures where our debt is now rising faster than at anytime in the last 10 years ( except that bit where we doubled national debt to cover the banks )
Things aren’t really as bad as you paint them to be. Plus even if they were, keeping a cool head is the most rational thing to do.
Im not worried about myself, my income has tripled over the last couple of years and I have no obligations. I don’t think those on the breadline would value your advice though, given they are struggling to feed their children. The Trussell Trust is opening 3 food banks a week.
We are in a period in the crash that is very dangerous. Many think it is over and yet we have not even seen the start of it.
I’d agree my analogy is flawed but it was the best I could come up with.
If we do hit a triple-dip recession it’s because we have too much debt and too many out-goings as a result of Labour policies and the EU and the current management is doing the best they can.
The rest of the world is not “well on it’s way out of trouble” as you put it, several European countries are fighting to stop being declared bust, America is still in major trouble (and going to get worse I think) and China just had a cut in growth from 10% to 7.5%, Japan still relatively stagnant and Australia and New Zealand have issues as well.
Some parts of South-East Asia, India and South America are doing ok or well but that’s hardly a ringing endorsement for Europe or Labour.
SPOT ON !!!! I do think the “receivers” could do with a little more imagination tho, they need to be investing in new technology, graphene and green technology for example and new tech start ups to rebuild our manufacturing sector, which has been destroyed by progressive governments from 70′s labour and the trade unions through the Thatcher privatisation era and onto to new labours call centre and banking economy, instead of relying on the greedy bankers to start lending again.
Thanks and I agree with your points
There is a article running on the BBC News channel around Graphene. Unfortunately for the UK is does not look good. I think the stats said the US and Chine had registered 1000′s of patents to do with uses for Graphene etc… while the UK had a couple of hundred tops. Thats disgraceful when we discovered the stuff.
The problem in the UK is a lack of investment. Nearly all sectors have large monopolies and little new money comes in to promote research. The Gov just announced £20m which is nothing.
Instead the current administration is attacking immigration, which allows ( or did ) the scientists to come to this country in the first place. This is along the lines of the EU policy, intentionally damaging the UK for party politics.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/oct/07/nobel-laureates-immigration-cap
Yeah I was listening to something on the BBC world service to that effect I agree it is disgraceful we really need move on Graphene in particular, before the American and Chinese patent system does a rounded corners on it.
I believe in the spending cuts, a necessary evil to pay back the debt Labour racked up to curry favour with the voters, but I don’t think those spending cuts should extend to investment you have to speculate to accumulate. Something which none of the parties seem to understand they seem to be to the left of the argument i.e. borrow more money for everything even those things which don’t return on investment, or the right cut everything even the things which do return on investment.
Not sure about the immigration issue you can’t have uncontrolled immigration its like everything you need to take a balanced view of things. It is a big issue with voters jobs are scarce enough without people from other countries filling those jobs, often employed by unscrupulous employers who pay peanuts compared to what they’d have to pay British citizens and uncontrolled immigration brings with it a strain on public services and housing and in some cases organised crime and some rather backward attitudes towards women and ethnic minorities, attitudes which we have worked hard to improve over many decades. I agree tho at this point in time it isn’t priority number 1.
LET’S MAKE THIS SIMPLE. I want to see the numbers.
Vote (in reply)
“Stay” if you want to remain in the EU.
or
“Leave” if you want to leave the EU.
Leave!! NOW!!
Are u Margaret Thatcher’s love child?
Why would I hang out with you losers.. if I was.
I think is his Thatcher’s legitimate child!!!
“A little bit of politics ladies and gentleman” adjusts steal rimmed specs
Leave ! but maintain the common market (like Europe was supposed to be before the bureaucrats saw they’re opportunity to cease power)
Leave
There are no rational arguments for leaving the EU, at least from the point of view of the lower 99%. Anything that makes you believe otherwise are just tabloid fabrications.
But hey, UK public is now firmly in the same position as the US public, where the abused majority is voting for the rights of the parasitic minority in false belief they’re doing something for their own good.
im not going to try and show how much i dont know on this subject but after reading an article in the Economist i fear that if we leave the EU, the US wont want to know us, our Business will fall and our stands of living will plummet not to mention a change in working rights. we will lose our AAA rating as well as a load of banks and we will suffer under heavy taxation and service strain. To leave the EU would be the most foolish thing any PM has ever done. i think..
I’m studying Law at uni, and before starting the course I was all for the EU… now I want the UK to leave so its easier to remember cases!
Having said that; there are a lot of common misconceptions about the EU and EU law which may sway some people to vote against it even though their reasoning is flawed. A lot of the arguments seem to revolve around the EU draining legislative and judicial powers from Parliament and British courts, but this is utter crap. The EU courts allow a margin of appreciation to the national courts and government in cases regarding state interests, a large majority of cases referred to Strasbourg are rejected on these grounds and the extremely small amount of cases that do reach it are decided in the UK’s favour.
Most agreements with the EU are already heavily swayed in the UK’s favour because it is so influential on the world stage and one of the most powerful free-markets. There are a number of treaties which have clauses specifically excluding Britain from participation; because we asked for them not because we’re being bullied. The majority of directives that do affect us are purposefully incorporated into British law as very few are designed to directly apply to the member nations; this means its our politicians implementing and enforcing them.
It’s a very messy subject, and its a shame the media don’t help in clearing it up.
We need to stick in the EU. If Scotland goes all independent on our ass we are going to lose out on numbers… Population and wealth dictate power at the end of the day.
Compared the china we tiny, with the EU we have a much bigger voice. The EU has a lot of regulations in place to protect people living in corresponding countries. Now i’m not saying adopt the euro… That’s a step too far.
If the government want to save money. Sell all those IP addresses we have, Ensure companies are actually paying tax. Don’t allow MP’s to have expenses if people can live on £30,000 comfortably then why do ministers need 100K+
At the end of the day they can have a bonus if we make exceptional growth. or unemployment falls dramatically.
They don’t deserve luxurious lifestyles if the country keeps dipping into recession. They should protect us the public by sacrificing some of their wealth to save money for the country.
Population of scotland 5,254,800 population of the UK 62,641,000 not such a massive dent if they want to hand over control of their democracy to Europe just to spite the rest of the UK thats their problem, But I agree in my opinion we are better off together.
I think it’s just a case of ‘Keep calm and carry on’
If we ever wanted to leave the EU it would be best when our economy is strong. If we left then all of a sudden our economy collapse (unlikely but by all means possible) our neighbours wouldn’t be obliged to help us out.
Although… What do I know… I study engineering…
NNNEEEOOOOWWWW AEROPLANES. Is pretty much how my mind works.
I think we are stuck in the EU, I think other places might react negatively to us leaving and make things diffacult.
however In the comments there seems to be tendency to think that people apposed to the EU are dreaming of going back to a empire. I think thats not the case, the people we elect should govern us, the EU’s goals and ours are sometimes not in line. for example we are a infomation based sociaty, with very little landmass comparativly. the EU says that house prices should become inline with each other, however if we have less land but still our house prices go down then have not many many people lost a lifetimes worth of money ? Also as stated we are not a very productive country compared to others but we are one of the largest banking hubs in the EU and once again if we fall into line over banking the loss will be considerable.
I think in many ways the members of the EU are out for what they can get for themselves, not for the good of the EU. However although this is a personal oppinion I think we are a fairly good natured country (for example we queue) and they have taken advantage.
lastly we are a monocracy not democracy, since we all dont have a vote over every thing, we vote for one person to make those decisions for us. I already hear the comeback of that the majority of the population are idotic, but is that any reason not to excercise there democratic rights? If the will of the contry is idiotic then we should help educate people, not just complain. If nothing else with some darwinian logic if the contrys will is idiotic then many of these idotic people through forces have to either become less idiotic or decide not to make their voices heard.
Sorry for the rant
people on the pro European side of things only call the voting masses idiots because they know they probably wont vote the way they want them too. Personally I think the pro Europeans are idiots and I have evidence to back that up
“lastly we are a monocracy not democracy, since we all dont have a vote over every thing, we vote for one person to make those decisions for us. I already hear the comeback of that the majority of the population are idotic, but is that any reason not to excercise there democratic rights? If the will of the contry is idiotic then we should help educate people, not just complain. If nothing else with some darwinian logic if the contrys will is idiotic then many of these idotic people through forces have to either become less idiotic or decide not to make their voices heard.”
The problem is in educating the idiot masses, they are idiots and don’t know that they are so – too stupid to realise that they shouldn’t vote or need educating on something.
I’d like to think I’m a step above the average pub idiot, I’d like to. But one thing an education has taught me is that I know nothing – I wouldn’t trust myself to vote on a major decision that impacts others. Yet an idiot wouldn’t think twice about it – as they are idiots. So you are likely to have all the educated abstain as they don’t feel up to it, while all the idiots are queuing up. So in conclusion anyone looking forward to a vote on Europe is sadly an idiot and therefore shouldn’t vote – what a mess?!
I often wondered about this, say we all vote on issue ‘A’ we probably dont know much about it so we say ok person ‘B’ it’ll be your job to get really educated about this and we’ll trust your decision. Soon as person ‘B’ makes a choice then everyone complains.
I got views on the EU as stated but I wouldnt really like to make a decision unless the people who live for this stuff can give a +/- list (factual would be helpfull) then we can make a informed decision. But thats not going to happen is it, whatever side they want us to go for is gonna be hyped and then others will catch them out and it’ll degrade untill we all feel contempt etc for them.