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A Tory MP and legal expert has accused HMV of literally stealing money from customers over the past few weeks, claiming that management’s decision to continue selling gift vouchers while the chain teetered on the brink was tantamount to “obtaining property by deception.”
HMV probably covered its arse enough in a pre-Christmas trading statement, though, in which it said there was “significant doubt on the group’s ability to continue as a going concern,” but it’s hardly fair to expect the grandparents of the nation to read company financial statements before popping down to the shops to buy some gift vouchers for their kids.
Ironically, one man has been accused of actual theft. Grandfather Eric Nolan decided to take matters into his own hands when a Dublin branch of the doomed retailer refused to accept his €40 HMV vouchers, opting to walk out of the shop with a handful of games instead. [Eurogamer via Guardian]
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“one man has been accused of actual theft”
Actually, he’s just admitted actual theft, there’s been nothing in the news to suggest he’s been chased up about it yet.
I am 100% behind that guy would walked out with what was owned to him.
What is being said in this article is exatly what I have been saying for a couple of days: HMV knew damn well that they would go down a while ago, and keeping on selling these gift vouchers with that knowledge what plain theft.
I haven’t bought any gift vouchers personally so I am not really concerned by this, but by the number of facebook posts about it, a lot of people are which is not fair on them.
who walked out*
It’s an interesting point on the grandfather in Ireland. Not sure how the laws work in Ireland, but in England, I don’t think it’s actually “theft”. The vouchers are a credit note/contract and he’s there to collect his debt.
Similar to bailiffs knocking on the door, then helping themselves to your stuff if you’re silly enough to let them in.
Not similar at all. A bailiff can only come round and ask for things with the backing of a court order. The vouchers are credit, but not your credit, they’re HMV’s credit. Effectively (legally speaking) all those who have gift vouchers are ‘unsecured creditors’ meaning you’ve lent HMV money without a contract requiring them to repay it if something goes wrong.
When a company enters insolvency they’re no longer required to pay back these unsecured creditors. That’s why Curry’s had to enter bankruptcy, because their suppliers were unwilling to enter the same relationship with them, and they couldn’t get insurance to cover them.
You’re not far off, but there are subtle differences that effectively fuck the little guy right in the anus.
But hey, there’s nothing new there is there!
Sorry, Comet, not Curry’s. I always get those two mixed up.
Hehahaha, it’s a good thing you’re not Curry’s PR agency!
That would be amazing.
“We’re going bankrupt.”
“No, you’re not, that’s Comet.”
“Fuck.”
Actually this would make an interesting case study.* And one that I need to be mindful of as we’ve got an HMV on our High Street.
Naturally I can’t speak for Ireland, but referring to the key part of s1. of the Theft Act: “Dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it”:
Now, if someone genuinely believes that say £40 of HMV is worth £40 in cash to spend at HMV (and using the “reasonable-ness test” that they had genuine HMV vouchers and not “£40″ scribbled on a napkin, and one would not normally be expected to read contractual fineprint about “unsecured credit, etc”, and you genuinely didn’t intend to steal), one could argue that they were not being “dishonest” in “appropriating property” belonging to HMV.*
I’d believe a police officer could still arrest the person for the purposes of interview (to establish the “dishonesty” part, etc), but I’m not sure if and how they would be charged for Theft. It would likely be a civil matter between the person and HMV.
* Please don’t take this as official sanction to storm into a HMV and take stuff. Don’t steal, kids. Or do drugs.
DW! Happy new year and thanks for the excellent policeman-angle on this. I know we’ve all suggested doing just as this guy has done with vouchers that are for all intents and purposes useless.
Where’s @MattDelito when you need him?
HMV no longer exist and its contractual obligations, such as honouring the vouchers, no longer applies. He was steeling from a new, separate company.
I am 100% behind the man though, it is dishonest to keep selling vouchers when you know in all likelihood you won’t be honouring them.
A lot of companies go bust in January as they use the Christmas period to shift as much stock as possible while maximising the money available post bust. To this end it can be argued that they knew they would be going bump and also knew they would not be honouring and vouchers.
@Southern: NP, you too! Will let you know if I or any of my colleagues come across the probably quite real chance of this happening.
@Rich Murrills: Rescuing damsels in distress and leaping tall buildings in a single bound. CO27. Apparently.
@shadowmatt: With that part of the Theft Act, who owns the property is largely irrelevant so long as it “belongs to another”. A man holding vouchers with “HMV” printed on it walks into a “HMV” store and genuinely believes he can spend his “HMV” vouchers at “HMV” like cash, then he’s probably got a leg to stand on with regards to the “dishonesty” part. If on the other hand, you knew (as we here do now) the HMV vouchers are worthless, then you would be dishonest…
I m not solicitor nor have the knowledge to details of the laws which covers this kind of act, but there should be some kind of rule/exception to this non-sense “unsecured creditors” clause, because these clowns still trading sales! If they go into bankrupt and not going to honor these vouchers they sold for real money, might as well not allowed to trade, and only allowed to sell their stuff in a special auction? or at sales of the company as a whole… because it is unfair if not(sounds) illegal while selling vouchers and declare bankruptcy and still trade and not honor the gift card. I think gift car scheme is all but a fraud/scam scream at the face of people…
I dont see gift cards any different than writing a cheque aka “supposedly same as cash”. The difference is that although you have to have money in the bank to pay the cheque, gift card is bought/paid/deposited/given to actual company with actual cash!
It is like giving your money to cashier to buy something, but you havent decided what to buy yet. You come back tomorrow, and shop closed/busted, fair you lost it. But shop is still open, and selling stuff/trading with special condition to protect themselves while screwing the guy who trusted them!
Well, like this MP says, it may well have been illegal to sell the vouchers, very much similar to writing a bad cheque.
With Jessops I believe they didn’t give out goods that were returned for repair or bought but not collected, which is just as wrong.
I’ll be very careful about where I put my money in future.
Yeah, and this is still really very bad, because bad cheque is one thing, but you actually deposit the money to the store where you want to spend it. It is just you dont know when (by who) to spend it. As i said, if they close down, fine, fair. But they are still selling/trading while protecting themselves under some dodgy loopholes.
http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2013/01/tesco-and-asda-will-refund-hmv-gift-cards/
now this is good pr and how it should have been in the first place!
Legally gift vouchers are an unsecured credit. This means it can be lost should something happen to the business.
While I don’t agree to it, its the same principle as a credit card calling in its loan, and when you can’t pay up, they just enter your house and take a couple of things. While baliffs might do this, they need a court order, and this would not usually be give against a credit card company on an unsecured debt.
Personally, anyone who buys gift vouchers these days needs their head looked at.
fair play to the old man. there is no excuse for not allowing people to use vouchers while the business is trading.
it is simple fraud they knew full well they were going to do this.
I’m impressed HMV kept going this long to be honest!
I hope this actually develops into something for a change, instead of just a statement in the news.
We could do with a ‘little guy’ win over obvious corporation greed/desperation.
Seems the employees are also at it as well… (well.. a bit of action anyway)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21059204
I went to HMV this weekend to get some headphones for a mate and the cashier really pressed me to get replacement cover through HMV in case they break, seriously pushed. Took 5 times to tell him to shut up and after walking out the shop and realising that they were bust and what he was trying to do, I walked straight back in and got a refund.
This is (was) their ethics? Shafting customers?
Hopefully this pushes the politicians into changing the law. Vouchers should be treated as the customers money until such time as they are redeemed, the company is only looking after it until that time. All voucher sales should be held in a separate escrow account until they are redeemed or expired. In the event of bankruptcy they could then be immediately refunded.
And while they’re at it, they should ban these vouchers that have ridiculously short expiry dates, I received some for Christmas (not HMV) that the giver didn’t realise had a 1 month expiry date on: they had already expired before I unwrapped them. Better yet, ban expiry dates entirely.