14 
As well as not really knowing when it’s going to come out in most bits of the world, Sony also seems to be unsure of how to answer the tricky question of whether PS4 contains any form of system to block the playing and installation of pre-owned games.
Speaking to NowGamer, Sony Europe’s MD Fergal Gara said: “The answer to the pre-owned question isn’t clarified just yet and we’re working through that and we’ll announce our position in more detail as and when we can.”
Meanwhile, is a separate interview with the gaming press, Sony’s VP of Worldwide Studios Michael Denny was equally vague on the matter of a used games block, saying: “It’s a massively important issue and I understand why it’s one that keeps coming up and will keep coming up, because people want to know what the exact stance is. In relation to points like that, of course we’re mindful of what the game development community wants and what the wider industry issues are with those things. I think in good time that will become clearer.”
“In good time that will become clearer” is a pretty useless answer. If the answer was “no ban” it would be much easier for all these shifty execs to say “there’s no ban” than to continue padding and flailing about pretending it doesn’t know or hasn’t decided yet. Sounds like there’s something big Sony wants to keep hidden here, or it’s waiting to see if Microsoft goes ahead with its own rumoured next-gen pre-owed games ban first.
And, lest we forget (we did just forget), Sony’s Worldwide Studio boss Shuhei Yoshida previously said there won’t be a ban. Maybe be ought to CC more of his mates into his emails. [Ars via CVG]
Report: HP Still Doesn't Know What to Do With webOS
Apple Really Doesn't Know How to Fix Its Massive Security Exploit
Research in Motion Denies BBX Infringement Claims, Doesn't Know What All the Fuss Is About
unless the price of games come down to the point that they are disposable once played, then pre owned games are an important part of gaming, without which a lot of people could not afford to be gaming,
i for one will never buy a console that does this and people are better off sticking to existing consoles than to put if with this shit
The used Game Market only exist because of physical media, so I believe their best bet is to let used games play and invest in the means to make digital distribution ubiquitous.
Whilst also bringing down the price of Digital copies, say starting at £30, 6 months later £20, then after a year put it into a group that can be accessed if you are paying for a package, like £10 a month for Fighting Games (or what ever).
If you only buy pre-owned games, you’re not a customer of Sony or the Developers, so why should they care what you think? Enough people buy new games now to support the industry, if a percentage stop buying cheap used games and buy fewer new games, they’re in a better position than before. This is a business, they don’t care about “gaming culture” , they want the best return on investment and that means locking out used games.
what do you think most people do with the money from the sale of their old games?
Buy new games judging from what I see in game shops.
Buy more second hand games actually, again, not a customer of the developers. do you really think game developers would be calling out for this if it was going to hurt them? Its only going to hurt those people who can’t afford as many games as they’d like if they can’t get them second hand, who aren’t the developers customers anyway.
Some peopl buy more second hand games again, lots use it to fund their purchase of the newest games. After all, they are damn expensive.
totally agree, people buy a mixture of new and old
do you honestly believe that people only buy new games or they only buy used games?
my collection is half and half
essentially you are as you purchased their hardware, also the fact that a lot of people buy into the fact that they can sell their games or exchange them helps alleviate the overall cost of gaming and offers more funds for continued support of sony and developers.
you failed to address the long term affect, people buying used consoles and used games, (a lot of the younger generation whose choices early on generally dictate their loyalty to one brand or another, now if consoles and games are out of reach for this generation, then that really is not a good move for any company
you view seems rather short sighted.
if however games purchased were at a disposable price level then i don’t see an issue
i have many game i have paid for on my tablet, and i treat them as disposable once i have played them then that’s it, i cant sell or transfer them, but they are cheap enough to be able to accept and absorb that. console games on the other hand are not, and i for one expect that i can sell or trade the game once I have finished with it
you are always going to get die hard gamers who will pay whatever the asking price is, but don’t forget the casual gamer or the gamer who cant afford full price games all the time more than likely outnumber these.
The company loses money on the sale of a console, they need to encourage you to buy NEW games to make a profit, if you buy second hand, they won’t make profit.
Games are a luxury product, no one needs games and so they will always be priced at a premium, they’re not going to get cheaper.
You’re obviously not able to comprehend this from a business veiw. You haven’t given the developer or the console company money if you buy second hand, if you sell on your game, you’re creating an oppurtunity for someone else to buy second hand and take income from those companies.
It is entirely in the businesses best interests to make it so you can only use the lisence you bought to play their game on your own machine and not sell that lisence on, just because you personally wouldn’t be able to play as many games, that doesn’t matter, because you weren’t giving them any money in the first place, or were creating oppurtunities to allow other people not to give them money, reducing two sales from them into one.
If there are people who currently can only afford to play games second hand and then reselling, they’re not a customer, so who cares if they get screwed over? And most of them will still play, they will just only buy one new game rather than 3 second hand ones, the developer and Sony get more money that way
If this was currently the case, why am I able to install a game I have downloaded of PSN on to 6 PS3s?
good point. lets close down all the libraries while we’re at it. They must be killing the book industry, it’s surprising it’s survived as long as it has.
Libraries are a public service and enjoy a protected space in western society. They provide basic access to knowledge and technology for all people regardless of their social station or financial means. They are subsidized by government because they are considered a public good. My tax dollars/pounds keep them open and I am damn glad they are there.
However libraries operate under strict arrangements with book publishers in regards to how many copies of a given book they can make available and how soon they can make them available. You don’t see libraries holding thousands of copies of a single ‘popular’ book because they are barred from doing this. Book publishers also get more £££ for library copies than they do from retail vendors. To the extent you can check out your used games from the library – go for it. Many libraries offer this service.
However comparing the used video game trade to the public good that is a library is just beyond ridiculous…
Yes, because it’s ridiculous to compare a computer game to the copys of harry potter that I can access for free (and the library only pays normal sale price for) Their limits on books are budgetary.
I can’t really discuss this with you anymore because you don’t know what you are talking about. I’m not trying to be rude but you are just dead wrong.
Almost all industrialized countries have PLR laws in place that pay authors and publishers EVERY SINGLE time someone borrows a library book, cd, video game.
Libraries also pay more for their books because they do not enjoy the retailer discounts that high street booksellers negotiate with the publishing houses.
The government agree with me that authors and publishers should be paid when their IP is lent out – that’s why they use your tax money to pay JK Rowling and her publishers every time you borrow that copy of Harry Potter…
I’ll refer you to the source:
{http://www.plr.uk.com/}
And because you don’t seem to be getting the finer business points here I’ll spell it out for you. The number of books libraries can offer on loan in the UK are constrained by their budgets – but NOT for the reason you think. It’s because the more copies they put into circulation the bigger portion of their budget goes to paying the IP holders.
you learn something new every day.
… and you really couldn’t get that point across without taking every opportunity to insult him in the process?
I didn’t take every opportunity to insult anyone. However if you took it that way I’ll apologize to you both.
Funny thing about the internet – people can forcefully state/shout any opinion they like – right or wrong – and that’s fine. However, after a couple of back and forth messages don’t seem to be heard and someone patiently points out why someone else’s opinion is probably off the mark – that person is being insulting.
Maybe the expectation is that we all just shout our opinions over each other and avoid any confrontation. I’m not sure.
I am sure, however, that I wasn’t trying to be insulting. So if it came off that way then it was totally unintended…
CaptainParty please re-read what bikerlifestyle just said. You seemed to ignore just about all of it.
The situation if FAR more complex than ‘Used Games = Zero Money to Developers’.
Core gamers WILL stop buying games for consoles if they are unable to resell them or if the price is not significantly reduced.
Go to any video game news website, find an article about the banning of used games and you will find a shitstorm in the comments section.
The problem with comment shitstorms is they’re mostly populated by the vocal minority and trolls, and therefore can’t be relied upon to give an overall consensus on an issue. Personally I never resell my games and I rarely buy used games so obviously I’ll not weigh in on these arguments online as it doesn’t really affect me too much. I doubt I’m the only person like that.
I ignored the plainly stupid parts of his argument, because he’s being ridiculous.
Games that can’t be sold on has not only worked on the PC its worked massivly well, his argument, and yours, has no basis in reality and its just backed by whining poor people in comments sections that won’t be able to afford games now, well guess what, if this happens, you won’t be able to afford games, find a new hobby, those of us who can afford it will continue to support the developers and not just line the pockets of failing businesses like Game.
Your argument falls down completely. PC games are already significantly cheaper than console games. That’s why it works well.
If developers and consoles makers like Sony and Microsoft want to destroy their own industry then that’s up to them.
wow that is probably the most pretentious thing i have read in a while.
so which of my point are actually ridiculous, and explain why
you may live in a world where you can spend money without a second thought, but you are in a minority.
and if my argument about 2nd hand games market is so very very ridiculous then why is there a massive 2nd hand games market.
so you find yourself defending businesses that you admit should not give a shit about its customers, yet you would support them blindly in that stance.
and ignoring peoples opinion and classifying them as ridiculous, because you can only selectively answer parts that only suit your purpose, is not a very professional way of getting your point across and swaying people to your side of the argument
No, what you said was redundant, the second hand market for games is huge because is very profitable, just not for the people doing all the work on the games. Its not my fault you’re far too stupid to understand that.
A business has to give a shit about itself and any share holders, they have to make money and keep making money, restricting the resale of their products, or ensuring that they can profit from any resale, is one way of doing that.
Your entire argument is based on the fact that you’re too poor to afford to buy as many games as you want to if you have to buy them all new and without selling them on.
Thats just a personal stance, its not realistic to think these multinational companies should do a damn thing to help you or people like you out, because its not financially viable to do that.
If you got that through your thick skull you’d realise that there is nothing you can do about it. Get used to buying games at full price, if it doesn’t happen this generation, it certainly will next time when its all done through digital distribution.
haha too poor, if only you knew.
but what I do consider is others worse off than me, along with sound financial sense when it does come to buying things.
I shall not join you in abusive or derogatory comment, because I AM better than that. life is too short to get upset at people on the internet.
I am one that cannot afford to buy all games brand new, intact I have only bought 2 games as new in my life. If they decide to block second hand games I will not buy their console at all, PC gaming is cheaper, better graphics and sometimes even better. You can’t go around calling people thick and stupid just because they have a different view as you. And if you actually believe that they make a loss when making consoles then you are gullible. You seem to care about Sony and the developers so much but if they actually block seconfpd hand games then CEX, game and all other game shops will go bankrupt and that would be a disaster over 10,000 people would be out of work and make the economy worse.
But Sony and Microsoft are testing people at the moment releasing rumours about them blocking 2nd hand games just to see people’s reactions.
You know what? While I actually find myself agreeing with some of the points you raise CP, I find your replies to be arrogant and unnecessarily abusive.
Surely someone with such an educated view on the matter could form a reply without the need to verbally abuse and make unfounded claims (the “you’re obv too poor” comments)?
Basically they want a ban but they’re either not sure if
a.) it will be legal or
b.) people will abandon their console in droves if its implemented
Or simply waiting to see what Microsoft is going to do?
thats built into b IMHO.
I think this is probably spot on, they’re gonna wait until Microsoft makes it’s decision and either join them in banning used games or join MS in allowing them, in fear of alienating the PS4 generation.
The trouble is of course that they can’t make a decision correctly right now. If they choose to ban used games MS could just come out and say “hey, we allow used games, join the green side” and everyone will. However if they allow used games the game developers lose potential earnings, making them turn to Xbox instead of the players.
I commented on this earlier and am too lazy to rewrite it – so here’s my 2c on the topic in the context of an earlier article where a Sony exec had said if “can” play used games…
————————————————–
Taking that answer at face value seems incredibly naive…
I think a better analysis comes from interpreting what he didn’t say rather than what he did.
He said that PS4 could play used games. He didn’t say that it will play used games or that there would even be a means by which one might transfer a game once it was bought. Saying it ‘can’ do something is a far cry from saying it will.
He also didn’t say, if it indeed will play used games, on what terms it will play them. It could very well be that the system will allow the transfer of game licenses but only for a fee.
I fully expect a system where Sony and their developer partners get a taste of the used game action. This has been coming for a long time. The only real question is how will they collect the fee. They could collect the fee directly through the PSN but that would require a lot of admin on their part. If they are smart they will offload that task and the associated headaches and bad PR by making the existing network of used game retailers deal with collecting a fee that will then be kicked up to Sony. Sony would then distribute the fee to their developer partners. This could easily be managed with a database of UICs which links each disk to a system serial number or PSN ID.
An easy system would work like this:
Little Johnny buys a new game. The game’s UIC has no association to a PSN account or console SN. Before little Johnny plays the game the first time it must be activated. The retailer can activate it with little Johnny’s PSN ID at POS, little Johnny can activate it over the internet via the web or it activates automatically if his console is connected to the internet.
On activation the game is tied to a console and a user. That game can then be played on the console by anyone, or on any other console as long as little Johnny is logged in. Anyone can play it at his house and he can take it anywhere and play it.
Then when lJ gets bored and trades it in, the partner retailer scans the discs UIC which charges the retailer a fee and unlocks the media.
When the disc is resold the entire process rinses and repeats.
In the off case a game is given as a gift, the recipient doesn’t have access to the internet and the gifter didn’t know the recipients PSN ID, then all partner retailers would be required to offer activation of games for free as a condition of being licensed re-sellers.
Clean, doesn’t require the user to have access to the internet, fair to developers, fair to used game merchants and takes the burden completely off of the consumer.
Regardless this model won’t last long. I foresee prepay pricing models and premium play pricing models giving way to a ‘coin operated’ pay for time model as games are hosted universally from the cloud. It’s better for developers and since developer participation makes or breaks a console, the market will naturally move to a model that best pays developers.
That’s what I think anyway…
not fair at all for offline games and not legal.
Fist sale doctorine makes sure of that. I dont kickback authors if I sell a used book, nor do I give Ford money if I sell on my old focus. For online stuff it’s okay(ish, dubious) because they provide ongoing service but not for offline games. They got their money when a copy was bought, as long as it’s not pirated then thats all they are entitled to.
its legal the same way you can’t re sell a copy of windows.
’91 computer software drective:
“The first sale in the Community of a copy of a program by the rightholder or with his consent shall exhaust the distribution right within the Community of that copy, with the exception of the right to control further rental of the program or a copy thereof. (Article 4 (c))”
You most certainly CAN sell on a copy of windows in Europe unfortunately (I think) Microsoft are under no legal obligation to provide support and updates to it so it would only ver be the out of the box copy
I disagree that First Sale doctrine even applies here. It has never been tested in this case and the legal grounds are EXTREMELY dubious.
You are free to sell the disk and the software on it. However Sony is NOT obligated to provide you with a means for playing it.
If you buy some old PS1 games second hand are they obligated to provide you with a console to play them on? That’s ridiculous.
Regardless, a simple change of the T&Cs for the console and the games can render the point moot anyway.
Theres a big difference in the two examples.
And you can’t use T&C’s to alter the law like that, they cannot degrade your statutory rights.
The legal grounds are solid, Sony would be purposefully trying to create an “unreasonable restraint of trade” one which would be unacceptable in any other market.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree…
we don’t HAVE to. You could attempt to cite the industries attepts to establish that they merely licence games and explain how well thats worked in other industries (oh wait, it largely hasn’t).
Even printer companies have been forced (to a degree) to allow purchasers to use non standard ink cartridges.
I don’t disagree that demolishing the used game market would be good for the companies in the short term, I just think eventually they’ll kill the goose with that sort of behaviour, do we really want consoles to become a niche market again?
i wouldnt mind the current model of £5 to play 2nd hand games, so long as the £5 is discounted on the sale price too.
buying something that is limited if you sell it on is annoying but steam does this already and kills any 2nd hand sales. the upside is PC games are a fair bit cheaper.
they also need to massively reduce the price for downloaded games. so many old games are £60 to download yet £40 to buy in the shops. that is just frikin stupid.
i’d be against that. the £5 would be discounted at first but then i can almost guarantee prices would mysteriously rise by £5.
yeah. i agree this will probably happen. its not like EA charge £5 less for their games that require the pass. plus it means your trade in is worth £5 less
correct me if I’m wrong but I swear I have read somewhere that you can sell on the licenses for steam games to other steam users.
yeah the whole pay £20 more for a game from PSN always confused me.
anyone know why this is?
surly if its in Sony’s interest that you buy games direct, rather than a 3rd party, they would at least match if not beat the store price.
I cant see where the price hike comes from.
i did hear its them being forced on the price by devs so you always see RRP, which no shops ever sell at.
i think you can transfer steam games but only when you buy them as a gift.
Avoid Sony like the plague. They do not give a damn about consumers, I seriously doubt they even give a damn about game developers. The only thing that matters to Sony (or other console manufacturers for that matter) is more money into the pockets of the CEO and share holders.
“The only thing that matters to Sony (or other companies/corporations for that matter) is more money into the pockets of the CEO and share holders”. There, fixed that for you.
And that’s the only reason they are in business – to put money into the pockets of their shareholders. That is the purpose of business.
So I really don’t get your point – if there was one at all…
Yeah lets all avoid Sony till they become a Nonprofit.
Fucking Capitalist Pig Dogs!
._.
They are probably waiting on Microsoft then decide. Why not offer two versions? One cheaper without disc drive and only for digital downloads and the other with disc drive. The one with drive can play used games but costs more.
well thats what microsoft are doing actually 2 versions 1 a cheaper version for the arcade games and online stuff
to me its obvious if they ban used games a few things will definatly happen
1. The few game shops left will nodoubt have to close, more so GAME in the Uk because most of their profit is from preowned games and they have already been rescued from going bankrupt once.
2. Sony will definatly see a decline in sales of their console and so will developers in their games.
I for one will Never buy something where i can not then sell it on or trade it in…its dead money tbh
your paying £40-£50 for something that will nodoubt take a few days to complete and then your stuck with someone you most likely wont play again and you couldnt even give it away either lol
i agree. i will only buy games i will play a lot. games like drake and tombraider will just be hard to justify 8 hours gameplay for £60